‍[00:02] Jennifer Wu: Hi everyone, thanks for listening to The Founder Spirit podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Wu. In this podcast series, I interview exceptional individuals from all over the world with the founder spirit, ranging from social entrepreneurs, tech founders, to philanthropists, elite athletes, and more. Together, we'll uncover not only how they managed to succeed in facing multiple challenges, but also who they are as people and their human story. 

“My father said to me that if you speak the truth, I will stand with you and so will the world.”

“The breadth of my work has one linear thread. It is often about people who are faced with (insurmountable) challenges and who rise to the occasion. And it is often about unsung heroes.”

“It is so important as a filmmaker to spend time immersing myself in those places so that I can better understand the story that exists, the story that needs to be told, and the story that will have the most impact.”

Joining us today is the empathetic Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy, a renowned filmmaker and activist whose work has impacted legislative change. Highlighting social injustices and marginalized voices, the two-time Academy Award winner has made ~40 films around the world addressing pressing issues like women’s rights and human rights abuses.

Sharmeen is also the recipient of four Emmy Awards, the highest civilian honor in Pakistan, and one of Time Magazine's 100 Most Influential People. 

Just how did Sharmeen become the only female director to have won two Academy Awards by the age of 37? Well, let’s talk to her & find out.

[01:51] Jennifer: Hello Sharmeen, welcome to the Founder Spirit podcast and thank you for taking the time to join us today.

[01:55] Sharmeen: Thank you so much for having me.

[01:57] Jennifer: Great. Sharmeen, growing up in Pakistan, what were some of your formative experiences?

[02:03] Sharmeen: You know, I grew up in Karachi, which is the largest city in Pakistan, and I came from a family of five girls. We were always taught to be out playing sports and making sure that we were treated the same as if we were my parents’ sons. 

And so I think from a very early age, I was born in a world where I didn't see a difference between a man and a woman, and that really helped shape the way I saw the world. 

But I did see the inequalities that existed in the world and I did see the opportunities that were available to some and not to the other. And that propelled me to do so much of the work that I have done in my life.

[02:46] Jennifer: So you've often called yourself a troublemaker, and you became an investigative reporter at age 17 for a local newspaper and you went undercover and you got in trouble with the article that you had published. Can you tell us what happened there?

[03:04] Sharmeen: Yes, I think I started writing for newspapers when I was 14, and by the time I was 17, I was writing investigative pieces at a time when investigative pieces done by young women (were) not really a thing. And I wanted to tell stories that move the needle on issues. 

And in my home city of Karachi, there was an issue of extreme bullying that was taking place and I wanted to expose families whose children were being allowed to have free reign. 

And I wrote this article and it came out as the front page of the major newspaper here in Pakistan, and that ruffled a lot of feathers. And the men I had written about had spray painted my name with sort of unspeakable profanities on our front gate and around our neighborhood. 

And it had been done in a way to shame me into silence. And I think that for a 17-year old to have that happen, one way or the other, I could have stopped writing that day or I could have pursued my dreams. 

And I think with my family's support, I was able to understand that someone would always have my back. Because my father said that day to me that if you speak the truth, I will stand with you and so will the world. And I think that really nudged me into the direction that I've gone on.

[04:22] Jennifer: So in 1998, you left Pakistan for the US to pursue an undergraduate degree at Smith College in the United States. And what inspired you during that time to transition from journalism into a documentary filmmaker?

[04:39] Sharmeen: You know, I have always been a storyteller. And so when I started writing at a very young age, it was a form for me to communicate and tell stories of people. 

And I realized when I was graduating from Smith College that a lot of the world that I was writing about was very unfamiliar to people. And so I wanted to visualize that world for them, and I thought about visual journalism and what it was. 

And I remember typing into the Internet browser one day the word “visual journalism” and the word “documentary” popped up, and I thought, well, that's one way of telling stories. And I had decided that how do you become a documentary filmmaker? 

And the tenets of being a storyteller always remain the same. So I binge watched a lot of documentary films and I took the experience that I had as a journalist and a storyteller from print and I translated that into documentary filmmaking.

[05:36] Jennifer: So you made two award-winning films while going to grad school at Stanford. And your first project was funded by the New York Times, who also provided you with a two-week crash course on how to direct, how to work the camera, how to work the audio. 

And by the time you turned 30, you managed to make 13 documentaries, where you traveled around the world and you shined a light on vulnerable communities, children, women and refugees on the front line in war zones. 

How did these early experiences in your 20s help you uncover the power of storytelling?

[06:18] Sharmeen: I've always looked at the world as a place where all of us have the same needs and wants. Some people are fortunate to have them fulfilled and others do not. 

And in the pursuit of those needs and wants, you find that people have started wars and people have moved, and mass migrations have taken place in the pursuit of needs and wants in unequal circumstances, people have had to fight and fight back. 

So I've always thought about my early stories as stories that would bring empathy. I wanted to bring stories from one part of the world to another so that people could see a reflection of themselves. 

A mother anywhere is a mother anywhere, a child struggling is a child struggling. And I wanted to strip that of nationality and religion and culture and just talk about what was happening to the human race in different parts of the world. 

And so in my 20s, I spent a lot of time in war zones because I think war really tests you in a way that very few things do. It tests family, it tests communities, it tests countries, and it forces people to do things that they're deeply uncomfortable with. It forces people to live and to live to just survive. Those were the stories that I did. I moved from Afghanistan to Syria and to East Timor, post-conflict zones, always in pursuit of those stories. 

Women have always been something I have focused on, not only in telling the stories of those women who I think are heroes in whose footsteps other people can get inspired to walk in, but also telling stories of women on the front lines who are risking their lives in communities to create a better tomorrow. Those were the kind of stories that I wanted to tell. 

And so I worked from Saudi Arabia, where I went undercover in 2005 to do a film on the women's movement, to the Philippines, where I did a film about access to contraceptives, to South Africa, where I did a film about xenophobia against other Africans who were coming into the country, to doing a film about Iraqi civilians who had helped the Americans and the British in the war and who had been abandoned.

And so I think the breadth of my work has one linear thread - it is often about heroes. It is often about people who are faced with (insurmountable) challenges and who rise to the occasion. And it is often about unsung heroes.

[08:55] Jennifer: So besides working in war zones and on the front line, how do you choose your subjects in general? You mentioned about unsung heroes, but when you choose these subjects, is it more of an instinct or is it more analytical?

[09:10] Sharmeen: I think every decade of my life has had a different motive for choosing the stories that I have chosen. 

So in my 20s, it was my barometer of anger, where I often thought about the stories that made me very angry. And I felt that they had to be told, we had to discuss these issues and we had to hold ourselves accountable for allowing them to happen on our watch. 

In my 30s, I wanted to focus more on stories that provided hope that had a silver lining. Despite the darkness, there was always light at the end of the tunnel. 

And in my 40s, I think I want to tell stories that reach a global audience - stories that will move people into action, stories that surprise people about the world that they live in.

[10:00] Jennifer: And what are the essential elements in making an authentic documentary?

[10:05] Sharmeen: I think at the heart of telling any story is who are the people we're telling a story about and what are the challenges that they have faced? 

I think as a storyteller, I often spend a lot of time immersed with people who have lived closely and understood and experienced things, learning from them before the camera even rolls the first day. 

I think it is so important, as a filmmaker who transports herself into different cultures and communities and countries, to spend time immersing myself in those places so that I can better understand the story that exists, the story that needs to be told, and the story that will have the most impact.

[10:53] Jennifer: So that's about having compassion and developing empathy even ahead of making the film…

[11:00] Sharmeen: I think the most important thing for me is to connect with the people who are telling the story. Because in understanding them, in hearing what they've gone through, in spending time breaking barriers with them, subjects have to lead filmmakers into the inner sanctum of their lives. 

They have to open up parts of themselves (that) they've never opened up to anyone else, so that the stories that the filmmakers are telling are enriched by their experiences, move people. So I think the most important thing for me as a filmmaker is to have that deep connection with the person whose story I want to tell.

[11:40] Jennifer: It's about developing that trust so that people can open up their authentic life to you during the filming process. 

Great. This is a great segue because we're going to talk about your first Oscar-winning film from 2012 called Saving Face, which features two women, Zakia and Rukhsana, who are survivors of acid attacks and their struggle for healing and justice. And it's also the inspirational story of a plastic surgeon who traveled from the UK back to Pakistan to rehabilitate these women. 

And the film starts with an astounding statistic - “there are over 100 acid attacks reported in Pakistan every year, and many more go unreported.” So what was the most challenging part in filming Saving Face, both emotionally and logistically?

[12:36] Sharmeen: Well, I'm gonna first start off by saying that since that film has come    out, the acid attacks have gone down to just a handful every year. 

But in the world that we were in 2012, acid attacks were very prevalent. But when you would open the newspaper in the morning, they would be relegated to three lines somewhere buried in the main body of the newspaper. 

And what Saving Face did was it elevated the conversation about acid violence to front page newspaper, which as a filmmaker is a dream, because the idea is to get people educated, angry and motivated to ensure that doesn't happen to anyone else. 

But acid violence is probably one of the hardest stories to document. And it is because acid is a coercive substance. And once it's thrown on someone's face, they're disfigured for life. And they spend their entire life trying to get their face back, essentially. 

And any plastic surgeon will tell you that is not possible at all, that even with dozens of surgeries, no one can ever get their face back. And so it is a mark of shame. It is a life altering mark. And as one woman told me, she said, it would have been better if a bullet had hit me. I would have just died, I relive this nightmare every single day. 

And there was something so profound in what she had said that deeply moved me into understanding that this was something they could never escape. And because Pakistan is a cotton growing country, acid was widely available. And so you didn't have to get a license, you could just walk into a store and you could pick it up.

And men were using it to teach women a lesson, whether it was about a woman who had spurned a potential suitor, or a woman who had wanted a divorce, or there was some other transgression in the mind of a man. And so, it almost always took women by surprise and it was almost always on her face. 

It was a difficult story to tell because in living with the women and in documenting their stories, but both Daniel Junge, who was my co-director, and I found that these women inspired us in a way that we didn't really understand when we began filming. 

And I'll give you an example of a day where I was filming Zakia sitting with her daughter at home. The winter sun was out and she was sitting in the courtyard and she was peeling an apple, and mother and daughter were exchanging jokes about cats and life and just laughing with each other. 

And in that moment, they were just that - a mother and a daughter. It wasn't Zakia who was disfigured and she was fighting for her life and fighting to send her ex-husband to jail. 

And that relationship inspired us to think about how human beings have so much tenacity and that these women, despite being marked, were determined to lead their lives in the best manner that they could.

[15:40] Jennifer: So that's interesting because despite being physically disfigured, these women were not portrayed as complete victims. They were both determined to fight on for a better future for themselves and for their children. 

You had mentioned that you always take away these lessons from working with these women. What lessons did you take away from working with Rukhsana and Zakiah?

[16:04] Sharmeen: I think the lesson that I took away from Zakiah, especially, was that a single woman's determination can change a system. 

And in allowing us to document her trials and tribulations and accompanying her to court and watching her fight against a deeply patriarchal system and win, that win is possible. But you have to get to the finish line, you cannot give up halfway.

[16:32] Jennifer: And also, I'm curious what went through your mind at the Academy Awards when they announced Saving Face as the winner. Were you surprised at all? Were you tipped to win? Or was it a total surprise for you?

[16:46] Sharmeen: I think it was a complete surprise for us that we won. And I think the most wonderful thing about going to the Academy Awards for the very first time was the fact that you realize that if you create a beautiful film anywhere in the world, the film community will embrace it. 

And that a film that has a message like Saving Face did that in winning the Academy Award, the amplification of that message would allow us to begin to have real change and move the needle on issues. And that's what the win at Saving Face did. 

Having me and Daniel up on stage and dedicating the award to women who are fighting for real change was deeply meaningful. And I think also beyond just Saving Face, having me up on the podium, to any girl who was watching from around the world, if I could win, so could she. And that is such an important symbol to have. 

And I hope that has led many young women to pursue their own yellow brick road. And I know that many have because I get emails from people all the time that tell me that my win has made it possible for them to imagine them winning.

[18:00] Jennifer: I love it. I actually watched the Oscar speech yesterday and I'm glad that your co-director Daniel Junge gave you the stage to speak. That was very generous of him, I thought.

[18:12] Sharmeen: He was.

[18:13] Jennifer: Yes. Continue with your activism for women's rights, your second Oscar film, A Girl in the River: Price of Forgiveness (2015) follows the story of 18 year old Saba who survived an honor killing attempt by her father and her uncle in a country where over 1,000 women are murdered in the name of honor, another crazy statistic, I would say. 

Sharmeen, can you explain to the audience what is honor killing and why is it even happening?

[18:44] Sharmeen: Honor killing is just murder. Anywhere in the world, it would be known as homicide. That's what honor killing is. It's when a father or a brother or a partner decides that someone has crossed a line and then they just kill them. 

In Pakistan, it's known as honor killing because murder is forgivable. Initially, before the law came into place, after the film came out, initially honor killing was forgivable. You could go into court as a family member and say, I know my father tried to kill me, but I forgive him. Or the wife could go into court and say, I know that he did this, but we as a family forgive him. 

And the ethos of the film was about a 17-year old girl, Saba, who wanted to get married to a young man in her neighborhood. And her uncle decided that in doing so, she had brought shame to the family. So he convinced her father to drive her to a river to shoot her in the head and to put her in a gunny bag and throw her in the river. 

The bullet ricocheted off her face. So while she collapsed, she didn't die. They put her in a gunny bag and threw her in the river. And the water in the river woke her up and she found herself being carried down the river and finally managed to come out on the embankment and crawled her way in the middle of the night to a fuel station. 

And the attendant at the fuel station called the equivalent of 911, and the police and the paramedics took her to the closest hospital. It was her good luck that the hospital she arrived at was run by a man who was a very big women's rights advocate, who had his own daughters and who immediately got the best doctors and the help to get her into surgery. 

The next day in the newspaper, there were three lines embedded in the middle of the newspaper that a young woman had been shot, thrown in a gunny bag, and had survived in what appeared to be an attempted honor killing. 

And I rushed my team to this small town and I remember walking into the hospital room and this young woman gets up, sits down on the bed, she's just a day-old (after) surgery, and says, I'm ready to tell my story.

[21:02] Jennifer: Incredible. I have to confess, I find it really difficult watching these documentaries, Saving Face and A Girl in the River. And I was wondering, it must be even harder for you, Sharmeen, to document these films. 

How do you process the emotional weight of these stories like Saving Face and A Girl in the River and many more that you've done?

[21:24] Sharmeen: I'm always thinking about the fact that as a filmmaker, I have the privilege of telling the story and then leaving the story, and that the people that I'm making the film about don't have that same opportunity. 

And so I have to make sure that I'm always thinking about them and what will happen to audiences and to the issue once we finish documenting their stories. And so it's almost like the eye on the prize, and that always helps me get to the finish line. 

Otherwise, the emotional toll of day in and day out being embedded in filming with people is very hard. And so, and it leaves with every film, you give a little bit of yourself to that film as well. 

In the case of A Girl in the River, I was pregnant throughout the film with my second daughter. And so I was filming in like 110 degree (Fahrenheit, equivalent to 43 Celsius) heat with waves of nausea, going between the court and her parents home, and speaking to extended members of the family, and trying to see if Saba would stick to her resolve. 

It was also a physical toll that it took on me when I was making that film. But Saba was the one who was really confronting everything on the front lines. It was her life that was impacted by it. 

At the very end of the film, she says that, you know, I want to have a daughter because I want to make sure that my daughter has more choices than I did. And I had just found out that I was pregnant with my daughter.

And it really did leave a profound effect on me that despite everything that had been thrown her way, she still wanted a daughter. And there was something to be said about that.

[23:04] Jennifer: So on her last day in court, she unexpectedly forgave her perpetrators. However, by bringing this issue of honor killing into public consciousness, your Oscar win also prompted the Prime Minister to change the law in Pakistan. 

So these days, now men who kill women in the name of honor receive life imprisonment. Yet, there are still many statistics that say Pakistan remains as one of the most dangerous countries for women. How do you see that evolving?

[23:43] Sharmeen: You know, I think, Jennifer, that women's rights around the world are being threatened. I think there is greater gender imbalance today than there has been in the last 25 years. And there are pushbacks everywhere. Women no longer have autonomy over their bodies, women's rights are being taken away. It's a systematic stripping of a woman's power across the world, and I find that Pakistan is no different. 

While we take 10 steps forward, we take five steps backwards. As long as you have men making decisions for women, there will always be a struggle for women to get more rights. And I do believe that it is all about power. I think that the gender imbalance exists because of the power imbalance.

If you look at the United States, I'm working there a lot now, and one of the things that really struck me was a report I read that more women are getting jobs and are leaving their homes than young men are. You wouldn't have ever imagined that 50 years ago. 

So the real question now is, is the pushback across the world, including Pakistan, because women are in spaces that men have traditionally enjoyed and do not want to leave those spaces for women to step into? Does that mean that our rights are being taken away so that we're distracted and are unable to compete on an equal footing?

[25:12] Jennifer: Interesting. When you talk about imbalances, whether it's political or gender, it seems to be happening a lot these days in today's world.

[25:22] Sharmeen: And one of the things that I'll say is that it's not geographically specific anymore. I will say that no woman, in the world in the year 2024-2025, can say that we are making strides forward. Almost every country in the world is seeing some pushback for women and women's rights.

[25:43] Jennifer: It's interesting because we always talk about this imbalance, not just power, but also in terms of energy. So you have the masculine and the feminine energy, and it's not just confined to gender. 

I think the dominance of the masculine energy in the world has caused a lot of conflict and war. And so we need to be part of bringing that balance back to the world, (to) bring back what we call the feminine energy.

Before we start talking about your latest work these days in Hollywood, I want to also mention the work that you're still doing in Pakistan. In your 2019 TED Talk, you talk about these mobile cinemas that you're setting up to reach very remote villages in Pakistan, to educate women, children and family on a wide range of issues - women's rights, income inequality, the environment, ethnic relations, religious tolerance - to transform the way that they see the world. 

And you've also set up an international art residency called Neela Asmaan, which means blue sky in Urdu, as well as Pataka Pictures to support female Pakistani filmmakers.

But in your latest documentary, which was released summer 2024, just earlier this year, Diane von Furstenberg: Woman in Charge, a biopic about a fashion icon, a princess, an entrepreneur who built a multi-million dollar empire and married to a billionaire. 

The subject of this film could not be more different than your previous ones in comparison. I was wondering what drew you to Diane’s journey and what were the deeper dimensions that you wanted to explore?

[27:32] Sharmeen: Diane is a woman who made it in a world, in business, at a time when women needed men to co-sign for something as simple as their credit cards.

She was a pioneer, she was an immigrant into the United States. She was a new mother, she had two children. So she was a working woman in the 1970s, setting up a business, competing with men. That was an inspiring story to tell. 

She was also the child of a Holocaust survivor. She had been taught from a very young age that fear was not an option. And for a young woman to be brought up with that kind of ethos propelled her to do the things that she has done. 

In telling Diane's story, I wanted to inspire young women to think about the paths that they follow. Most often, women hold themselves back. And Diane's story is a story in which you feel the need to push yourself because you see where Diane got when she did and having no fear in doing so, and that's why it was of interest to me. 

I've also always told stories about women who are creating change in their communities. And Diane has just done that, but on a very different level.

[28:51] Jennifer: And in collaborating with Diane over, I guess, the course of two years, what surprised you most about her?

[28:59] Sharmeen: Diane allowed us (the) inner sanctum of her life right from day one. We opened the film with Diane devoid of any makeup, sitting in her sink, applying makeup. 

You know, celebrities tend to really guard their privacy and guard their raw moments. And Diane from day one was like, here I am, this is who I am. And I think she really embraced the storytelling side of it. She wanted to open it up to us so we could really get to know who she was. And that really surprised me.

[29:35] Jennifer: And what is one lesson from the documentary that really resonated with you?

[29:40] Sharmeen: I think for me, what really resonated was that she's never had any regrets. Diane has always followed her heart, has owned up to any of the mistakes that she's made, and has decided to forge forward despite the obstacles thrown in her face. And that is very inspiring as a woman to see. 

It's also inspiring to see that Diane was an outsider when she was growing up. She grew up in Belgium, where everyone was blonde and blue-eyed, and she had dark hair and a darker skin color. 

And so she was an outsider that became an insider in New York. And so to see that journey and to follow that and see the decision she made to get there was also deeply inspiring.

[30:28] Jennifer: Sharmeen, having found international success and recognition, you’re now working in Hollywood as the director of the Disney series Ms. Marvel, and also now with the upcoming film Star Wars. 

How was your transition to go from making documentary films that highlight very heavy societal issues to doing fiction films that were just much lighter and more entertaining?

[30:58] Sharmeen: You know, the stories that I've been telling have always also been rooted in things that I have seen around me, and breathing life into characters that I have met and experienced and bringing something in the recesses of my mind to the screen. 

And Ms. Marvel is a perfect example because while it's about a Marvel cinematic superhero, it is very much also about one of the largest mass migrations the world has ever seen in 1947. It's about visualizing the pain and trauma of those people and setting a Hollywood story right at the heart of it.

And I think that a lot of the projects that I'm embarking on are very similar, in that I have to think about my lived experiences and what I have seen around the world to bring that to the heroes and villains that we are creating. 

Because as many heroes I have seen, I've also seen many villains and many shades of villains in my life. And in working with writers and in being on set, I'm bringing shades of those to work with actors.

[32:04] Jennifer: So it's interesting when you said 1947, which is the year of independence for Pakistan. And because of you, I did some research - I had some very close Pakistani friends and people who are Indian Muslims, actually. 

I was wondering if you could maybe provide some more historical context? I find the whole cultural context about how Pakistan came into existence just fascinating.

[32:27] Sharmeen: Well, Pakistan came into existence in 1947 after the English decided to leave. When they were leaving, they haphazardly put on a map and marked which line would demarcate Pakistan, which line would demarcate India. 

And they often cut villages and towns and communities into half, because the person who was doing the demarcation didn't know India. And it was, for him, just a piece of paper and a pen. 

But it impacted millions of people. And in 1947, in the month of August, millions of people made the journey on foot and in trains on both sides of the border. Hindus leaving Pakistan, Sikhs leaving Pakistan for India, and Muslims leaving India for Pakistan. And in setting up the country in Pakistan, even right from day one, it was very difficult to start a new country. 

[33:21] Jennifer: Right, I understand your family also had to move from India. Yes. Gujarati, right, Gujarati.

[33:29] Sharmeen: No, I don't have any roots in Gujarat, but my grandparents, both sets of them, one moved from Lucknow and one moved from Allahabad in India, and they moved to Karachi, and that's where they set their foothold right here.

[33:43] Jennifer: Okay, I think we're going to have to correct that mistake on Wikipedia. (chuckles)

[33:50] Sharmeen: I mean, Wikipedia has a lot of information that has no bearing to me or my life. It just pops up ever so often, so I have no idea where it comes from.

[33:58] Jennifer: Okay. I'm glad that we cleared that up on this podcast. 

Sharmeen, as one of few female directors of color, have you encountered any personal challenges?

[34:07] Sharmeen: I think Hollywood is opening up to having more diverse voices, both men and women, who are coming into the mix. I think that it's important to talk about what each one of us brings to the table. The films, the stories that we want to tell, and how we want to tell them. 

I think that there is always pushback and resistance when you have newer voices that come into fray. But I think as a whole, my experience with Hollywood has been that in the stories that I wanted to tell, I've been able to navigate my way and find those. 

And so I think that streaming platforms have really helped because now you can have many more stories told, and filmmakers from Korea and Taiwan and India and all over the world become part of one ecosystem.

[34:59] Jennifer: And moving on, as a mother, what message or messages would you want to convey to your own children?

[35:07] Sharmeen: I think it's important to convey to one's children about following your own heart and following your own dreams, that it is important to make sure that you don't hold yourself back and that whatever the challenges that are thrown your way, you figure out how to get to that finish line. 

I think that more and more, I want to encourage my daughters to remove that inner barometer that holds women back and just to break free. And what Diane said about fear not being an option is something I really hope that my daughters are able to grow up with.

[35:46] Jennifer: So it's interesting, because the first season of my podcast, actually, somebody asked, oh, what is the theme? And I said, the theme is everything you ever wanted is on the other side of fear.

[35:57] Sharmeen: Yes, well, very much so.

[35:59] Jennifer: You talked a lot about pushbacks and blowbacks, and I wanted to know how you handle them, because in a country where it still remains one of the most dangerous countries for women, I'm sure you've also experienced some personal threats. How do you handle the pushbacks and the resistance?

[36:18] Sharmeen: To be honest, I don't really pay attention to the pushback and the resistance, because there is pushback and resistance to anything that one does that breaks the mold. And so much of what I have done has broken the mold. 

I think about the voices that cheer me to the finish line. I don't think about the ones that want to distract me, ever.

[36:37] Jennifer: That's wonderful. You spoke about the angry barometer in your 20s that has always driven your work. Are you still angry?

[37:41] Sharmeen: I think that ever so often, something happens that makes me think about how in 2024, we still have an unequal world. But I'm inspired by the stories that I still tell, by the people I still meet. 

There are people around the world who, despite the challenges that are being thrown at them, are risking their lives, are building communities in which they are providing real investment for the next generation to have a better tomorrow. And as long as we have those around the world in front lines, as long as the world has a conscience, I think we'll be okay. 

But I think it's only natural as human beings to get moved and angry about something and motivate ourselves to do something about that, so that we can say that happened on my watch, but I resisted, I said something about it, I amplified that, I spoke to people about it, I showed them a better way. And we can only do that.

[37:47] Jennifer: And beyond Star Wars and also another film, I think, Brilliance…

[37:52] Sharmeen: Yes.

[37:52] Jennifer: Will you go back to making documentaries again? And what do you think will be the next pressing issue that you are looking to tackle in your storytelling?

[38:03] Sharmeen: I am looking at scripts and really wanting to do more narrative work, whether it is in biopics or whether it is in telling political stories that connect one world to another. 

I think my focus right now is on getting both Brilliance and Star Wars up and being on those sets. And I think that cinema is such a beautiful thing and the community of cinema and bringing people into theaters - I'm excited to be part of that storytelling orbit.

[38:34] Jennifer: Great. Now we're moving on to the rapid fire section. This is a lot of fun, so you just answer with one or two words. (chuckles)

So how long on average does it take to bring your films to life?

[38:46] Sharmeen: 2-2.5 years.

[38:48] Jennifer: Which one of your documentaries was the hardest to make?

[38:52] Sharmeen: A Girl in the River.

[38:53] Jennifer: Which journalist do you look up to?

[38:55] Sharmeen: Christiane Amanpour.

[38:57 Jennifer: Your favorite book or film over the years?

[39:00] Sharmeen: My favorite film is (The) Dark Knight (by Christopher Nolan).

[39:02] Jennifer: Oh, interesting. Have you ever doubted your path or considered stepping away from filmmaking?

[39:10] Sharmeen: No, never.

[39:11] Jennifer: What is the best piece of advice you've ever gotten?

[39:14] Sharmeen: Never take no for an answer. Your favorite quote? If a door hasn't opened for you, it's because you haven't kicked it hard enough.

[39:21] Jennifer: And one word that describes your journey?

[39:23] Sharmeen: Compassion.

[39:24] Jennifer: Last but not least, what does the Founder Spirit mean to you?

[39:27] Sharmeen: The Founder Spirit means a real struggle to be on the front lines of creating something that will inspire people, inspire yourself, motivate you, motivate others around you to create something that leaves a lasting impression, creates change. That's what the founder's spirit means to me.

[39:49] Jennifer: Thank you, Sharmeen, thank you for taking the time to join us today on the podcast and sharing your journey and how storytelling can catalyze social change.

[39:58] Sharmeen: Thank you so much.

[40:00] Jennifer: If this podcast has been beneficial or valuable to you, feel free to become a patron and support us on Patreon.com, that is P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/TheFounderSpirit. 

As always, you can find us on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, as well as social media and our website at TheFounderSpirit.com.

The Founder Spirit podcast is a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net-zero (and nature-positive) economy and restoring planetary health. 

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