[00:02] Jennifer Wu: Hi everyone, thanks for listening to The Founder Spirit podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Wu. In this podcast series, I interview exceptional individuals from all over the world with the founder spirit, ranging from social entrepreneurs, tech founders, to philanthropists, elite athletes, and more. Together, we'll uncover not only how they managed to succeed in facing multiple challenges, but also who they are as people and their human story. 

“The truth is that we don't have one, but two minds - the conscious and the subconscious mind.”

“The only real obstacle between where we are today and where we want to be is our idea of who we are. So we are not what we choose, we are the power to choose.”

“I've come to understand that success is our natural destination when we stop moving towards failure.”

“If you can save one life, you will save the entire universe. I saved the only one I could save - it's mine.”

Joining us today is the enigmatic Byron Leon, an expert on the subconscious mind and hypnotism. He is known for his many media appearances, successful shows and conferences that blend hypnosis with self-improvement. Sought after by major corporations and even nation states, his groundbreaking techniques are transforming lives.

I first became intrigued by Byron’s work after hearing about it from a friend who was suffering from a severe burnout. Despite multiple surgeries and the antidepressant medication that she was taking, nothing really seemed to help. 

To make a long story short, she attended his weekend workshop, and almost immediately after, underwent a very profound personal transformation. And long and behold, she now lives with joy and gratitude, despite having to face the same challenges in her daily life. 

Just how did Byron, once a child struggling with developmental dyspraxia, become a leading expert of the subconscious and empower others to overcome their limiting beliefs? Well, let’s talk to him & find out.

Hello Byron, welcome to The Founder Spirit podcast! I believe nothing happens by chance, certain synchronicities have brought us here today to unpack the power of the subconscious, and thank you for taking the time.

[02:11] Byron Leon: Thank you very much, Jennifer, for having me. It's a pleasure. 

[02:14] Jennifer: Thank you. Byron, growing up in Switzerland, you had a motor skill disability called dyspraxia. While it did not affect one's intelligence, it did affect your movement and coordination. 

Can you tell us how this condition impacted you as a child, both psychologically and physically? 

[02:35] Byron: Yes, so I only discovered that I was dyspraxic much later in my life. During my childhood, no one around me, including me obviously, had any idea that I was suffering from that condition. 

And just to explain to people what exactly it is, dyspraxia is not to be confused with dyslexia. So it is a coordination and motricity disorder, which can lead to learning difficulties for a child, and thus requires more time, more effort and concentration.

And physically, dyspraxia may not appear obvious. So in appearance, there was nothing that seemed to be wrong with me, and I, certainly, did look like any other child of my age. 

But since I had enormous learning difficulties and nobody knew that I was dyspraxic, the only thing that could explain the catastrophic results that I had in school and my slowness in other domains was that I was just no good. 

So the psychological impact of that condition was enormous. It played a role in me being a very shy kid with very low self-esteem. I was constantly anxious and worried about (everything). And little by little, being no good became my identity.

Just like the people listening to us have an identity which captivates them and gives them a role to play. So little by little, not only did I become captive of this identity, I became more and more adept at playing my role of being no good. 

And the story should have ended there, but one day, an unexpected event changed everything.

[04:15] Jennifer: Right. So hypnosis is defined as a trance-like state that resembles sleep and is induced by a person, the hypnotist. So tell us about your first encounter with hypnosis at age 9. 

[04:29] Byron: So my parents had enrolled me in a children's circus camp when I was 9 years old. And while I was looking forward to it, unfortunately for me, I was made to be the assistant of a magician who wasn't very nice to be around, to say the least. 

And also maybe realizing that magic wasn't actually real, it might have been somewhat of a letdown. But anyway, at some point, I was just so fed up and I said out loud that magic was for fools and that it wasn't real anyway. 

And a member from the troupe comes up to me, asks me a question which changes my life. He asks me, would you like to see real magic? And on the basis of my past history, of my shyness, the only possible answer that I could give that man was to say no. 

I was supposed to say no. And as I'm about to say no, I hear myself say, yes. And that was a very surprising thing because I recall feeling as if something or someone else had spoken in my place. So I'm in front of that man and I say yes. 

And he tells me, okay, you are going to place your hands like that, with your fingers interlocked, as if you're making a prayer. And I will count from 3 down to 1, and on the count of one, you will find that you will not be able to open your hands no matter how hard you try. 

So I'm hearing that and I'm thinking, this poor guy, there is no chance that this is going to work. So I clasp my hands together and he starts to count 3, 2, 1. And on the count of one, my life changed because my hands remained stuck. 

And I distinctively recall trying my hardest to separate my hands, my eyes were open, and all of a sudden… Well, this is more than stunning because what I'm witnessing and experiencing at that moment goes against everything I know to be true, everything I know about the world. In an instant, it's like the impossible becomes possible. 

And I felt a release from the hold of that narrow and restrictive vision of the world which I had unconsciously inherited and that had been forced upon me. And it was like seeing the Matrix. And I tasted a sense of freedom and of wonder like I had never tasted before. 

And at the end of that experience, this man told me, this power is within yourself, and you'll know how to do that when you get older. So saying yes saved my life. And from that day on, I knew that real magic existed. 

[07:19] Jennifer: So despite this first experience with hypnosis, you continue to be still bullied at school. And a few years later, you were brought face-to-face with the existential. Can you tell us about what happened? 

[07:35] Byron: I think it's good to clear up that during this experience at the circus, the word hypnosis was not mentioned. So I just had the feeling that something extraordinary had happened, but I didn't know what had taken place. 

So I carried with me that sense of possibility that something else was going on beyond the visible reality that I was experiencing in my day-to-day life. And yet I remained… I got back into the Matrix, so to say.

And you're right, when I was 12 years old, well, I was living at the time in a state of extreme distress because I was suffering from severe school bullying, which went on a daily basis. 

And with time, the pain, and I'd say especially the shame, became so increasingly intolerable that on the way to school, there is a little tunnel through which we pass over which there is a railway line. 

And instead of going through like every day, I go to the side and I climb up the fence. And I place myself on the tracks standing, I put my school bag next to me and I just wait. I wait there for that release. At that point, I didn't care about anything anymore. I just wanted this terrible feeling to stop at any cost. 

And as I'm waiting for the train, I recall having many different thoughts. And at some point, I don't know why, but I recall this experience that happened to me at the circus when I was 9 years old. 

And I'm thinking about what this man told me, that I have this power within myself and that I will be able to do that when I get older. And as I'm thinking about that, I'm telling myself, well, that's funny, because he was wrong. 

And as soon as I tell myself that he was wrong, something comes over me and it's as if I'm waking up from a dream. And I realize the madness of what it is that I'm about to do or is about to happen. And I take my school bag, I go away from the railway line and I run as fast as I can towards school. And while I'm running, I hear the train behind me. 

And after that, I'm just in a state of total shock because I can't understand what's going on with myself or how I could possibly have wanted to end my life. So how can it be that one can want to live and die to go from such an extreme to another in just a couple of minutes? How can such contradicting forces exist not only within myself, but within everyone for that matter? 

And for the first time in my life, a very strange thought comes to me. Am I really one person like I always assumed I was? Or could there be more than one me inside of me? Could it be possible that I am two instead of one? And if so, which is the real one? 

So in that moment of total confusion and anguish, I made a promise to myself that I was going to resolve this existential question no matter what it took. And should I be successful in finding the answer, I would share my findings with other people. 

[10:35] Jennifer: So it's interesting having different versions of yourself or having multiple versions of you. 

I find the story of your first awakening very captivating because it's very similar to that of Eckhart Tolle. He's a very well-known contemporary spiritual teacher. He was at a point where he was trying to kill himself. And he realizes, in that moment of trying to kill himself, that there are multiple versions of ourselves inside. 

So there's the higher self versus the lower self. So the higher self would be (the) I and the soul and the authentic self; versus the lower self, which is the me, the ego and the shadow. 

Other people might say you have a multiple personality disorder, but we've all probably experienced it in certain moments of our life. It's just whether or not this has manifested itself in a more pronounced way. 

And I was wondering if you have some thoughts about how we come to this ever present human condition, this endless struggle between love and fear, abundance versus lack, oneness versus separation. 

[11:46] Byron: Absolutely. 

You know, spiritual teachers might say it in a different way, but I'm sure that if we were to sit in the same room, we will absolutely come to (an) agreement. So what I will explain to you now will relate inevitably to what you were just saying, although I will use different words, because this is the model that I present. 

So the truth is that we don't have one, but two minds. And we have two separate entities which control us, the conscious and the subconscious mind. But since we collectively regroup those two entities together by calling them my mind in the singular form, this perceptual error leads us on the wrong path to work on ourselves, because the self that we consciously end up working on has, in fact, little to no power over our lives. 

So today, neuroscience reveals to us that we are only conscious of 5% of our cognitive activity. And in actual fact, almost all of our decisions, actions, emotions, and even behaviors depend on the remaining 95% of our cerebral activity, which takes place outside of our conscious awareness. So this invisible cerebral activity, which you can compare to the hidden parts of an iceberg, is what we call the subconscious mind. 

So the conscious and the subconscious are not the same. They each have a different role and a different function. They both hear and learn in a different way, and especially, they understand each a different language. 

So the conscious mind is like the dreamer inside of us. It’s the part of us that's creative and rational, it’s the part of us that has desires and wishes, whereas the subconscious mind is the doer inside of us, controlling our actions and behaviors.

So just don't forget that while it is your conscious mind that sets your goals, it is your subconscious mind that achieves them. 

[13:49] Jennifer: So earlier you said you had a thought in your mind that you were a loser or that you're no good at something. Is this your subconscious mind or is this your conscious mind? 

[13:59] Byron: This is playing in a way of conditioning. So, for example, what did I take from leaving the train tracks? Immediately, I told myself that I couldn't trust myself. 

And all of a sudden, this phrase inside my head, I can trust myself, took on a whole new meaning. And this will answer your question, I think, because if there was a self that I couldn't trust, then maybe the I and the self were not the same person. 

And this realization opened up a whole new world of possibilities in a way, in ways of interacting with myself. 

The fact of the matter is that we all have roles that we play, and yet none of the roles that we play are true, none of them are real. So we are not what we choose, we are the power to choose. 

And I was conditioned to think that this wasn't a role, but this was me. And as soon as I realized that there was a difference between the I and the self, all of a sudden I could take the necessary steps back and the distance to see what I thought I was, but I actually wasn't. And finally this became visible and I could work on it. 

[15:16] Jennifer: So it's interesting because I often experience this in myself. 

I just remember when I had this idea to launch the podcast. I initially was very excited about it, and then after the excitement had subsided, there was a voice in my head that was telling me, you don't know how to do this, you’re a finance person, you're not a communicator, you're not a media person. You have no idea how to do this, you've never done it before. Why did you come up with this crazy idea? 

In that scenario, eventually, I got some help. I went back to see my life coach, and I just worked step by step towards, I guess, maybe the higher self. 

But this is something that I think most people experience very often, even on a daily basis. So what are some of the tools that we can help ourselves to overcome? 

[16:10] Byron: Hypnosis, (chuckles) it will be, according to me, perhaps the best one. 

And the reason why is that as we grow up, from the time of our birth until we are about six to seven years old, we live in a constant state of hypnosis in which we will absorb people's subconscious patterns which surround us. 

And we do this in order to survive and to make sense of the world. And we will take on patterns which will program our idea of who we think we have to be to survive. 

And after that age, the brain waves stabilize. You get out of this hypnotic state, if you will, and you will live on the rest of your life, as in a post-hypnotic suggestion, meaning that you will use your life to corroborate whatever is instilled in your subconscious mind, and you will find ways to devote the rest of your life to manifesting what you already know to be true about your life. 

In other words, instead of living the present or the future, you will eternally live your past. And this is why people's behaviors are very easy to predict.

So the point I want to make with that is, since it is in the state of hypnosis that we acquired all the subconscious patterns, we can use hypnosis to go back and to change those settings. 

[17:34] Jennifer: Great. Now I want to take us back a little bit, because after you had your existential crisis on top of the train tracks, you met a magnetizer who's also an energist, and you started your apprenticeship with him. And for those of us who are unfamiliar, can you tell us what magnetism is? 

[17:55] Byron: Sure. Well, magnetism is essentially a life force which enables us to access other states of consciousness. So it is a nonverbal way to reach our innermost through polarities and elements. 

Magnetism is also a precursor to what we nowadays call modern hypnosis, which relies mostly on verbal communication to achieve the same aim. Since communication is more nonverbal than verbal, magnetism actually happens to be much more direct and powerful than modern hypnosis. 

[18:31] Jennifer: And this life force that you're talking about, it's obviously invisible, but do you see it around everything? 

[18:39] Byron: It is not invisible. 

[18:40] Jennifer: Maybe not to you. 

[18:43] Byron: Let me tell you the difference. It's a life force, and it breathes life into everyone and everything. 

So when you stop (using) your eyes to survive as a survival tool, as a defense mechanism against the unknown and against danger, and you start to use your eyes to live instead of surviving, you will start to see the world in a whole new, different way. And the invisible then becomes visible. 

[19:14] Jennifer: Fascinating! We're gonna have to talk about that a little bit more (chuckles). 

And so from this teacher, you learned from magnetism and hypnotism because you said hypnotism is a verbal communication. 

[19:28] Byron: Okay, so just to clarify, modern hypnosis as we understand it today relies essentially on a verbal approach and on the power of a verbal suggestion, which is also the approach that is adopted by hypnotherapists. And it's more of a psychological approach that directly addresses the mind. 

Whereas magnetism is an energetical approach that addresses the entire being and not just the mind. This approach is based on ancient magnetic traditions, which are still used today by healers, for example. And it is in that tradition that I started to learn.

Later on in the history of magnetism, it became transformed into something a little bit more diluted, I would say. I think that the best way to go about hypnosis is to learn both approaches. 

I started with the magnetic one, which is really the core and the source of hypnotism. But society today and people are so mentalized that it has become extremely useful to know how to address not only the being, but also the mind, specifically. 

[20:38] Jennifer: And in your opinion, what are the widely held misconceptions about hypnotism? 

[20:45] Byron: There are a few that I think are worthwhile to explain. 

The first is that hypnotism is not a state of relaxation and sleep. Yes, the word hypnotism comes from the word hypnos in ancient Greek, which means sleep. But even though the hypnotist will say to his subjects to sleep and to relax, they are not actually sleeping. 

Hypnosis is also not a state of relaxation, since it's possible to place someone under hypnosis in such a state of tension that you can place this person in between two chairs and have someone sit, stand, or even walk on them. 

So the truth behind the word hypnosis is not the actual act of sleeping, but the metaphor and symbolism of sleep that we use to make our conscious mind understand that it can progressively rest and let go of its current reality. 

So when the conscious self becomes dormant, this other part of us then can freely emerge while the other one is resting. So the actual aim is to put one part of us asleep while awakening the other one. 

Another myth will be that you can remain stuck in a state of hypnosis. This is actually impossible. If I was to have a cardiac arrest and to pass away in the middle of an experience, the people under hypnosis will still find a way to wake up on their own, because the subconscious will transform the hypnotic sleep into natural sleep. 

So when the subconscious mind ceases to be stimulated by the hypnotist, people wake up on their own in just a few minutes, or even in a few seconds. But it's impossible to remain stuck in a state of hypnosis, just like you cannot remain stuck in a dream at night. 

However, the most common myth, the one that I want to address the most, is the myth of the evil or demonic hypnotist that can manipulate people. 

[22:37] Jennifer: (chuckles) Yes, people have warned me about you, more than one. 

[22:42] Byron: They were right to do so. 

But first of all, under hypnosis, our moral code remains unchanged. So as soon as you want to make somebody do, under hypnosis, something that goes against their values or their moral code, the suggestion will be blocked by the mind. Just like when you are having a nightmare, when it becomes too intense, when you wake up. 

So with hypnosis, it's exactly the same. It is not possible to coerce, to oblige or manipulate someone else to do something that goes against their moral code when they are under hypnosis. 

And secondly, it's not like I'm entering people's minds. So the fact of the matter is that I act more like a guide who inspires my volunteers to awaken their own powers, to hypnotize themselves. So one needs to understand that hypnosis is not something that you do against people, it's something that you do with them, not against them. 

So it's really a relationship of collaboration and of trust that will be created between the hypnotist and his subject in order for me, as an example, to help the volunteers live the dream that I'm proposing to them as if they were living it for real. 

So, no, a hypnotist will never take control of your mind, but instead show you how you can control it. And that's an interesting thing, because when you know how to control your mind, no one will be able to control it for you. So the truth of the matter is that hypnosis makes us actually immune to manipulation instead of being susceptible to it. 

[24:17] Jennifer: So you can't hypnotize people who are not ready to corroborate with you, Is that what you're saying? So somebody who's resisting to be hypnotized cannot then be hypnotized. 

[24:30] Byron: It's not just a question of resistance, but it's a question of being willing to let yourself be guided. And the interesting thing is that whether you are ready or not, as you say yes or no, because you may say you're not ready consciously, but unconsciously you are. 

So I have people telling me, this is not going to work on me, that there is no way this is going to happen, not a chance, I will resist with everything that I have. I snap my fingers and they fall on the floor. 

On the other hand, you have the other extreme of people who really wanted, yes, I'm sure that I'm going to be the perfect subject, you can do with me whatever you like. And they don't let themselves be guided because subconsciously, they don't want it and they are not ready. 

So the readiness has to deal both with the conscious and the subconscious mind. 

[25:19] Jennifer: So when you put people under a state of hypnosis, you're actually turning off their conscious mind so that you could access their subconscious. 

[25:27] Byron: Yes, and speak to a deeper part of themselves. 

[25:55] Jennifer: Okay. It's interesting because I heard from a friend of a friend who had previously been hypnotized, and she saw green people (chuckles), so let's call it fairies. She was under a hypnotic state and she saw green people. 

It's very similar to how you performed on stage where you told this woman that she was walking a puppy. So they actually see the puppy. 

[26:33] Byron: Just like your child who's playing with a broom and pretends that it's a horse. And for the time being, it is a horse. 

If you were to stop the child in the middle of his or her game to tell him or her, this is not a horse, this is a broom. The child will look at you in such a way which would make you understand that you are being the weird person. 

Because at that very moment, it is not just imagining, it is living in its imagination. So the being lives out the internal reality externally and manifests the behavior corresponding to the reality of it. 

[26:43] Jennifer: I want to go back to your mentor, your teacher. Can you tell us a little bit what he was like and what are the key life lessons you had learned from him? 

[26:43] Byron: The only word that comes to mind right away is kindness. 

You know, just to back up a little bit. When I had my experience on the train tracks, I was in such distress that my parents didn't know what to do with me anymore. And we had tried various things like kinesiology or going to a psychologist, and etc., which didn't help. 

And through a friend, my mother had heard of this man who was a magnetist, some sort of a healer. I had no idea what magnetism was, and neither did she. But somebody told my mother, bring your son over there, maybe it's going to help him, maybe it's going to awaken something in him. 

And when I met that person for the first time, when we looked into each other's eyes, it was like thunderbolt. I had no notion of past lives, reincarnation at the time, this concept was totally unfamiliar to me. 

But when I saw that person and we looked at each other for the first time, it was as if I knew that we had already met before. And it was a knowing, it was not an idea, a concept, a maybe. I knew that I had come face to face with my destiny. 

This man, I will call him a benefactor for humanity. He taught me how to love and to be. And it was so pure and simple. I can't really describe it in words, but this man taught me everything that he wanted to teach me, just for his presence alone and for his being. And watching him work and be with people was just an enlightening experience. And the heart and the kindness is something that will never leave me. 

When people tell me after my show, one of the feedbacks that I hear the most is that people compliment me on my kindness. And I don't know how this translates in English, but the word in French is bienveillance. 

When you're kind hearted to people, to the volunteers, to the subject in a way that nurtures them so that they find the courage to confront who they are, to question their potential and the limitations that we all unconsciously take for granted, this is a beautiful thing. 

So this man helped me make this power emerge within myself so that I could be at the cause of my experience in life rather than at the effect. And I got better and better, both physically and mentally. And to summarize that, I am what he taught me. And I know that my volunteers on stage and the people who work with me will feel what I felt when I met that person. 

[29:24] Jennifer: By the way, that word means benevolence. 

[29:27] Byron: Thank you, Jennifer, I learned a new word in English today. 

[29:30] Jennifer: It's the same word in French, actually, just differently. (chuckles)

Oh, I'm very curious, I would have loved to meet him, but he sounds almost like one of these gurus, right? Because I hear stories of people going to India and they meet their gurus and it's as if they met previously and this person just radiated love and kindness. 

[29:54] Byron: Do you know what's funny? Have you read the book Siddhartha? 

[29:57] Jennifer: Siddhartha? 

[29:59] Byron: Siddhartha, yes.

[30:01] Jennifer: About Buddha, about the life of Buddha? No, no, I haven't read that one. 

[32:04] Byron: You haven't read that one, okay. 

[30:05] Jennifer: But I know the story about Siddhartha.

[30:08] Byron: But this is… I believe it's slightly fictionalized or it takes various different turns from apparently the historical one. 

But anyway, he meets the Buddha at one point in the story, the young prince, and he chooses not to follow him. And years later, after his life takes so many twists and turns, he basically meets an old man that helps people cross a river on a little boat, a modest man. And he decides to drop his life and to just live as simply as possible with that man. 

And later on, it is through this man's inspiration and way of showing him just his being, with all the power of his simplicity and presence that Siddhartha actually finds enlightenment. And he ends up realizing that the real Buddha was in fact disguised as this simple man, which nobody will turn around to look at twice. 

And that's exactly what I feel when I think back of my first mentor. This was a person that you will never notice, you will never turn around to look at him twice. And yet, when he looked at you and said hello to you, that warmth will remain with you for months to come. 

[31:28] Jennifer: I had that experience once with Sadhguru. He just looked at me, we didn't even talk, he looked at me. And I often think about the kindness in his eyes that he conveyed without saying anything. So, thank you. 

And I understand that in the miraculous transformation that ensued, you flourished academically, and you graduated with top grades in your canton, and you also had a very successful career in finance. And you had mentioned that very quickly previously. But why did you decide to leave private banking? 

[32:01] Byron: That's an interesting question, many people ask me that. 

And so let me go a little bit in depth. I had always thought that it was I who had chosen my career in private banking. But in reality, it was never my choice. The choice was made by my need to clarify to myself and probably the entire world that I was not the loser that I thought that I was growing up. 

And why would I have needed to clarify that if I didn't fear deep down that there might be some truth to it? So even though I had tremendous success in the outside world, my success was bound to an internal primal fear, the fear of actually being the loser that I thought that I was when I was a child, or at least having part of that losing streak inside of me. 

So I counterbalanced my fear of being a loser by being a tremendous winner. And I was winning. But no matter what I accomplished, it never completed me, because it was always tied to the shadow of a doubt that lurked behind closed doors. 

And one day, I had a spontaneous experience of tremendous awakening, which made me realize that both the loser and the winner were just roles, that neither was real. And the only thing that was real was, in fact, my power to choose and breathe life into what I wanted to be. 

So my reason for working at the private bank disintegrated at once, and I didn't have to be there anymore. And when being there became a choice, I was actually free for the first time to leave or to stay on my terms. 

But I was so content after that experience that, frankly, none of that matters either way. But I remembered that I had a promise to fulfill. And because of that, I left right away. 

[33:58] Jennifer: And your promise was that had you learned the secret of hypnosis or had you learned how to heal yourself, you would bring it to the world? 

[34:07] Byron: Exactly. At that very instant where I had this awakening experience, and I take you back to right after this experience on the railway line, all the existential questions that I had asked myself had found their answer. 

At that very moment, my life was complete and my being was forever at rest. This had answered everything for me. 

[34:31] Jennifer: Very profound… You know, Byron, I know that you like to speak in parables. I was wondering if you can tell us the parable about the hen. 

[34:40] Byron: This is a good one, because if you want to understand how hypnosis and the subconscious mind works, you listen to that story. 

So this is the story basically of a farmer that finds a little egg on the floor one day. Since he doesn't know where to place it, he puts it in the hen house. And just a few days later, a funny looking little bird gets out of the egg, lifts his eyes towards who he thinks is his mother, and begins his life amongst all the chickens. 

And so he is raised as a chicken, we talk to him as a chicken, and he's treated as one. And when he looks around him, he sees how other acts, chatter, scratch the ground, the earth, to find worms. And so he learns, he starts to act like them, to chatter, to scratch the earth, like everybody else. 

So he's learning, he's adapting, and sometimes he even uses his wings to fly in the air, but only for a couple of seconds, because every time he goes a bit too high, those around him are there to protect him and to tell him, are you crazy or what? This is dangerous what you are doing, do you want to hurt yourself? So you stay close to the ground. It's for your safety that we are telling you this. 

And the years go by, and little by little, the little bird starts to become older. And one day, as he's scratching the earth, like every day to find worms, he sees in the sky above him an extraordinary sight. A bird maybe, but the magnificent, a strong, a powerful bird which glides majestically without effort in the air with powerful and golden wings. 

And that sight fascinates him particularly. So he exclaims, what is this? And his neighbors tell him, well, it's an eagle. And you see, those are birds who belong to the sky, as opposed to us chickens who are birds who belong to the earth. 

But while he stays there, just dumbstruck at this sight, watching this eagle in the sky, he notices that he cannot avoid feeling a strange and strong sense of proximity with that magnificent bird in his heart. And he suddenly feels, deep down, a renewed passion for life, for living, as if the vision of that eagle had ignited a fire inside of him. 

And he feels a longing for freedom and a longing for flying higher and further than anything he's ever been allowed to. Because eating worms and flying for just a couple of seconds had never truly completed or satisfied him deep down. But looking at that eagle, it's as if he can sense within the possibility of a new life, a new beginning. 

And then his friends mockingly snap him out of his little daydream and advise him to keep on scratching the earth, to eat worms, which is what he did day after day, year after year, until he stopped. 

But what you don't know, and what our little bird wasn't aware of, is that he was in fact himself an eagle. That a little egg that had been found many years prior by the farmer had, in fact, been an eagle egg that was accidentally placed in the hen house. 

And so when he lifted his eyes to the sky to see this eagle, this powerful and free bird, it was in fact his own reflection that he was looking at. But he didn't know that. And so our little eagle lived and died like a chicken, because that's all that he thought he was. 

And, Jennifer, it is my personal observation after more than two decades of involvement in the field of personal development, that people are generally too busy being mediocre to be great, too busy being chicken to realize that they are eagles.

And it is not our fault, because everything is made to maintain (our ignorance) of what we truly are; everything is made to keep us dependent and progressively weaken us and put us to sleep. And so you see, the real function of a hypnotist is, in fact, not to put you asleep, but to awaken you. 

My aim is not to hypnotize, but to de-hypnotize you. Because quality hypnosis work does not consist in helping you becoming an eagle, but rather in liberating you from everything that prevents you from seeing that you already are an eagle. 

[39:17] Jennifer: And when you said everything is preventing you to be the eagle, what is the everything? 

[39:23] Byron: The everything is this unconscious fascination that we have for a false sense of me and reality that comes from our automatisms, our habits, and all this conditioning that tells us who we are supposed to be, instead of the person that truly lies behind all of that. 

[39:45] Jennifer: So in one of your seminars, you quote, “the hardest prison to escape is the one in our own minds.” And I want to explore this concept of illusion, or what they call Maya in Hinduism. And it basically refers to the way that a person's existence and self-centeredness stop them from seeing the truth. So I was wondering what your truth is? 

[40:15] Byron: Okay, so this is a multiple part question. What I will say first is that before we get to the illusion part, the only real obstacle between where we are today and where we want to be is our idea of who we are. When we manage to escape who we think we are, have to be or should be, and use hypnosis to go beyond all of that, then we can suddenly start to de-condition ourselves from this false sense of me and rise beyond that person's limits. 

So let me just clarify the aim of hypnosis. It is basically to create a state of dissociation where we can get out of ourselves and get to the bigger picture, which is like a 360 vision of everything that can be. 

And this is where we will find new ideas, information and possibilities that we just couldn't see before. This will also make us understand the big why behind the way we are. And what actually really lies behind our fears, our problems, depressions, doubts, anxieties, addiction and stress, etc. 

Everything is going to clear up. And this clarity will give us the peace of mind that is required to perform to the best of our capabilities. Because once you understand how you gave your power away, you will know how to take it back. And you will then make your entry into the worlds of eagles. 

Now, in regards to the second part of the question about the concept of illusion, what I will tell you is that as I said before, in our day to day lives, we are all subjugated by a false reality that is composed of automatisms, habits and our idea of who we are, of what we can and cannot do. And we thus progressively and imperceptibly slip into a state of fascination, which is... 

[42:08] Jennifer: the name of your show? 

[42:11] Byron: the title of my show, yes exactly, in which the ideas and the beliefs that we have end up having us. And at that point, we stop seeing the world as it is and start to only see the world as we are conditioned to be.

So just like in the movie the Matrix, our minds are controlled by subconscious forces that remain in the background, while we consciously interact with a false notion or version of reality that we mistakenly believe is real. 

And this is perfectly obvious when one takes just a step back to look at our so-called human condition. You know, we crave meaningless symbols, argue and obsess over things that don't matter at all. We rush, curse, and even fight, even though we will all end up in the same place anyway. 

[43:00] Jennifer: So now, for someone who acts according to their conscious mind, which is, as you said, 5% of what really guides us and influences us, how do I know that I am being a chicken and not an eagle? How do I come to the sense that I can be an eagle, and meanwhile I'm acting as a chicken? Because being a chicken is all I know for all my life.

[43:25] Byron: Well, the question pre-supposes that you know deep down that something is amiss and that you are not being what you can be. Maybe you are being what you should be, but according to whom? Certainly not to the deeper part of you. 

So it's funny, because the question is, how do you become conscious of what you are not conscious of? 

[43:48] Jennifer: How do you have an awakening? (chuckles)

[43:50] Byron: Basically, how can you think about the unthinkable? So, basically, the trick is to look at your life because your life acts as a mirror of your subconscious mind. 

Just like I said before, the purpose of the mind is to make sense of the internal and the external. It will take your internal patterns, your internal programming, and it will use your life to put the two together in a coherent way. 

I'm not saying that you're responsible for the events that are happening in your life, but the relationship between the two is what you're responsible for. And the quality of that relationship can drastically change when you wake up to that deeper self and reality. 

And the interesting thing is, as soon as you do, the external, strangely or maybe not, starts to turn around and to change as well. 

[44:49] Jennifer: I agree with that. But do you think in order to awaken that we must go through a state of suffering? 

[44:56] Byron: No. 

[44:56] Jennifer: But you did, and many of us did. 

[44:58] Byron: Actually, I wouldn't say that it's necessary, but what you just said made me think of my mentor who told me… That's a good point, I didn't think I will, I will get into that. 

[45:10] Jennifer: There you go. something spontaneous. (chuckles)

[45:14] Byron: When my mentor and I first met, he told me soon after that he saw something special in me. And I was always too shy to ask what it was. 

And one day, after quite some time, I (found) the courage to finally ask him. Not only because I was curious, but I was hoping that maybe it would validate a certain quality in myself that would make me feel better about myself, maybe like a compliment, you know, I noticed that you had a nice vibe or a nice energy, well whatever you say to people. 

And so I mustered the courage to ask him. And luckily enough for me, he recalls. And he says, yes, I remember that. And then I tell him, well, could you tell me what it was that was special about me? 

And much to my disappointment, he tells me, what I saw in you is that you had really suffered and you were therefore ready to receive. That's all I will say. 

There are different types of suffering. You don't have to be a sadomasochist and put yourself through hell in order to think that you finally deserve to be happy. Because this will be the antithesis, the total opposite of what it is that I'm talking about. You don't have to deserve happiness. 

Everything that I speak about - truth, reality, freedom - this is our innate state. This is what comes before all the roles that we thought we were supposed and had to play. So when you drop all of that, everything that you're looking for is what remains. You don't have to get there, there comes to you. 

And the point that I want to make is that suffering is not necessary. But in my case, it brought me to a place in which real suffering put me in a position where I had no other choice but to transform. I was at the end of my rope. There was no escaping routes anymore. 

However, when I was in the private bank, there were many. There was money, there was success, there was my reputation, there was my work. I had so many escape plans in order never to have to come face-to-face with those doubts inside of me and those shadows. But it took a real act of courage and honesty to face myself. 

So I think suffering can play a part at some times, but at other times, you really have to muscle the strength, the courage and the honesty to look deeply inside, even though you may have other escape plans. 

[47:53] Jennifer: So I agree with that completely. And I think many times why we're still being chickens is because it's too hard to look at the person in the mirror, to go deep down. And that's what prevents us from realizing... 

[48:07] Byron: It's actually funny you say that, because my awakening experience happened as I was looking at myself in the mirror. 

[48:31] Jennifer: Literally… (chuckles)

[48:32] Byron: Literally. And I saw myself for the first time as I really was. Without masks, without costumes, without me, just purely an honesty. And in that moment I saw something I had never seen before. And suddenly everything opened up externally, like internally. 

[48:32] Jennifer: What did you see? 

[48:32] Byron: But I saw that the person in the mirror was actually not there to show me who I was, but to shield myself from who I was. And that I recognized that I was not Byron, but I was the person wearing him. And for the first time I saw what was wearing me, as opposed to just relating to my costume like I always had. 

And when I recognized what I was, it was like passing to the other side of the mirror. And I became what I was. And at that instant, it was instantaneous, I knew that I had come to the end of my personal development journey and all my questions had been immediately answered. 

[49:15] Jennifer: And so do you have a self narrative these days? 

[49:19] Byron: A self narrative? What do you mean? 

[49:20] Jennifer: About who you are? 

[49:22] Byron: Like what? 

[49:22] Jennifer: About who you truly are (chuckles) So you're no longer the successful banker, you're no longer the 12-year old kid that was sitting on top of the train track waiting for the trains to come. 

[49:36] Byron: Oh, okay. I finally translated the question in my mind, so now I understand what you mean. 

Instead of having to read what something or someone else wrote for me, like a script that I will follow that was already printed out, now I'm the one writing the script. So that's the difference. I shifted from being the reader to the writer. I write my destiny. So what I am is never what I choose, I am the power to choose. 

[50:07] Jennifer: Very powerful statement. I want to ask you, besides hypnosis, have you explored other ways to access the transcendental state of consciousness? 

[53:02] Byron: No. Well, apart from hypnotism, magnetism and those natural ways, no. But I tell myself, what does it matter what means of transportation you use if the destination is the same? 

Because in all cases, the way is always honesty. And there is nothing better when that honesty comes directly from you, without external help, without crutches or even substances. 

[50:17] Jennifer: And while a global mental crisis is looming upon us, with 20% of university students in the US taking antidepressant medication on a regular basis, many remain skeptical of alternative forms of therapy. Can you tell us the potential benefits and risks of hypnosis? 

[51:05] Byron: Sure. Well, the benefits will be self-transcendence, the possibility to be, to think, to emote, to socialize like never before. You acquire a sort of fluidity and mental elasticity which allows you to be and to do freely. With that comes a sort of an ultimate or a complete self-knowledge. 

You also acquire an alignment between the internal and the external, which leads to a sense of inner peace. So we then have access to a state of happiness which is infinitely more nourishing than the emotion of happiness. 

In terms of risks, there are no real negative risks. However, like any self development journey, it can stir certain things up when you face yourself, obviously, but there are no physical risks. But can I just interject something for the people listening to us? 

[51:53] Jennifer: Sure. 

[51:54] Byron: If you are listening to this, you have to know that we currently live in a time where there are actual tools that exist which can help you in only minutes to control your thoughts, your emotions, master your stress, sleep better at night, improve concentration, memory, confidence, performance is to program yourself, even to reach your goals, improve your communication skills, your motivation, and many other things. 

Things that you've been carrying on your shoulders for decades can be made to be let go of in a matter of minutes. So we live in extraordinary times in which there are extraordinary techniques that you can use to master your destiny. 

And you don't have to believe me or to believe in the techniques for them to work. If you use them right, your life can change overnight. Just try and see. And to say to you candidly, I am a living example that all those techniques I'm talking about work. And not only can I talk about it, I can show it. And you've seen me, you’ve seen me a couple of times already, actually. 

[52:57] Jennifer: Yes, I've attended two shows already, yeah, absolutely. 

You know, I understand that you also study shamanism as part of your quest to better understand the origin of hypnotism. And I'm curious, what have you uncovered in this process? 

[53:13] Byron: Hypnosis has its earliest forerunners in Pharaonic Egypt, ancient Greece and tribal shamanism. Just like the earliest practitioners of magnetism, the ancient shamans would use specific means to reach altered states of consciousness so as to perceive and interact with other dimensions and energies in order to serve their tribe and community. 

So at the core, what I uncovered is that there is a definite link between hypnotism, magnetism and shamanism. I was actually very fortunate to meet and even be taught by very, very powerful shamans on my journey. And some of the key insights that I've learned from those otherworldly encounters will actually feature in my next show. 

But I'll say this, on the surface, the means of entering in the trance states between all these disciplines may vary. For example, shamanism may seem to rely more on music, dances, vibrations and movements. But when you look closer, you will see that all of the different practices are, in fact, linked together through subtle forces. 

[54:21] Jennifer: So when you studied shamanism, do you feel that the world that you enter into in the hypnotic state is similar to the spiritual world that you might see? 

[54:31] Byron: Absolutely, yes. 

[54:33] Jennifer: That's how you see the energy fields? 

[54:35] Byron: Yes, it's all connected. It may come from a different part of the world, from a different culture, thus interpreting the same signs that we see through different lenses. But ultimately, all those things, and that's the beauty of studying all those different things, is that we then come to a common denominator where all of that eventually comes together. 

[54:56] Jennifer: So one of the things that you said in your presentation was that we all have this energy field around us, and that's also how you use magnetism to, I don't want to use the word manipulate, but (chuckles) to work with…but you move people… to work with, to move people around. Can you tell us, maybe elaborate a little bit more on how we are all connected, how that energy field connects us all together, not just us as humans, but animals and plants and all sentient beings on this planet? 

[55:34] Byron: All right, so first of all, during my youth, I realized that something was happening to me using those techniques, you know, and learning from my mentor, when people and animals started to react differently to my presence. 

And all of a sudden I saw this very rapid shift in how sentient beings were basically reacting to my being and seeking my company. So this was the first sign for me that, wow, something is going on over there. 

But, you know, this is a big question, I think I'll touch on collective consciousness by answering this. You see, when you work one-on-one or in private workshops, you work on an individual level, that is to say, with the individual consciousness of a physical person, which is made up of multiple selves, like we talked about before.

But when you work with a company, on the other hand, or with a group, you are dealing with a collective consciousness linking multiple individuals. Now, here is an interesting part. When you manage to work on a collective consciousness, all of the individuals that are a part of the collective change at once. 

So I have a company that is called Higher Force. Higher Force is a company that is actually dedicated to helping companies harness the subconscious mind to achieve their goals. Now, the major innovation that we bring to the table is our work on collective consciousness, which is the capacity, for the first time, to have specific tools in the workplace that help you to target the Collective consciousness of a group instead of working one individual at a time. 

And this revolutionizes people's capacity to connect to one another in a deep and meaningful way at work. And you can also do this outside of work, hence the use of those techniques and the work that I do with the sports team. But as you've personally witnessed watching my work, Jennifer, people can be made for collective consciousness to connect deeply with one another and share mental images, emotions, thoughts and sensations. 

And when you know how to create these deep connections with a group of people, you can accomplish extraordinary things as a team. You can unite people and bring them to move mountains together. And that's the core of my work with companies. And let me tell you, it is the future of innovation and human transformation in the workplace.

People have to understand this, there are no empty spaces in between us, which means that, on an invisible level, we are all in touch with each other directly. And you can influence people by your own internal feelings.

[58:22] Jennifer: So now we're jumping ahead a bit and we're talking about your work on the collective consciousness. But how is it possible that you can work on collective consciousness without transformation at the individual consciousness level? 

[58:39] Byron: Because there is inevitably a link that starts to form in a group of people when they are together on a subconscious level. And this is the collectively shared reality that they have. And that's why group dynamics are so important, because people may not think the same thing and behave in the same way when they are alone as opposed to when they are in a group. 

How many times does it happen to you that you tell yourself, if only I could have the same attitude in all situations. You know, I seem to speak so freely with my friends and to be a certain way; in certain situations, I'm different. That's because you enter a reality which is you become a part of a collective consciousness as opposed to an individual one. 

And by detecting the common ground that is unconsciously shared by the people in the group, bringing that out of the shadows where all the people can suddenly see this common ground and become conscious of it, you all of a sudden get the possibility and the capacity to work on that directly. 

[59:44] Jennifer: So can you give us an example of what you've done and the successes that you've achieved? 

[59:50] Byron: Yes. So first of all, one has to understand that there is no difference between, for example, high level sports and high level business, because business is a game of competition and success is a team sport. 

So I want people to be aware that every top performer, almost without exception, practices a form of self-hypnosis. That is to say that they program themselves to be successful day after day, week after week, and even year after year, by visualizing, affirming, and thinking certain things in repetitive ways or using rituals until their success becomes unconscious and normalized. 

So even though they may not call this hypnosis, when you distill the essence of their methods, you will come face-to-face with the astonishing realization that what they do is, in fact, a form of self-hypnosis. So without knowing it, they use the mechanism of hypnosis intuitively, which creates a sort of unconscious competence. 

Now, if these people could only become conscious of what it is that gives them access to their best performance, they could use that awareness to amplify their success. And for the rest of us, well, you can learn to do what all those top performers do, but in a conscious, deliberate, and structured way. 

Let me give you an example. I use in my work with companies a technique that allows you to see directly into your subconscious mind. And just with that technique alone, you start to see remarkable changes take place. And I even mean physical effects. 

So people seem to develop capacities after using that technique that they didn't have before doing the exercise. And what I mean by that is that were these people to run after doing this exercise, they will run significantly faster than before doing the exercise. 

And why is that? Well, in the example of running, here's the interesting thing, we all know that we get to run faster by adding to our ability to run, and that seems to be the logical cause of things. But I claim that this isn't true. 

What I discovered in my work is that maybe you get to run faster by taking away the inability to run faster. And I know this may seem counterintuitive or, like I just said, the same thing in a different way, but absolutely not. It's more subtle than that. 

I've come to understand that success is our natural destination when we stop moving towards failure. And in truth, the real secret of mastery and success in any domain has less to do with the act of adding something to our abilities and more to do with taking away our inabilities. 

Success is what remains when we stop achieving failure. So maybe success is not something you actually achieve, but something you disachieve. 

[01:02:53] Jennifer: That's kind of like what happened to me when I launched the podcast. It was like overcoming this negative self-narrative and overcoming the fear of failure. So actually, when you move away from the fear of failure, you naturally go towards success. 

[01:03:08] Byron: Yes, because it's innate. 

You know, all that people have to do is to become present to their situation, to come to understand what they need to do in the moment to move towards the next step. Because the moment tells you everything that you need to know. But you can't listen to the moment if you are too busy listening to a false sense of you to a false sense of reality. 

And groups of people, in the example of companies and sports team, etc, are plagued by the same individual limitations. So if the group was to be liberated from those constraints, all those people will suddenly see the same situation instead of seeing all of them a different one and come together with a common idea to get to the next step. 

[01:03:56] Jennifer: And can they achieve this collective consciousness, even when they're being chickens, when they're not realizing that they could be eagles? 

[01:04:05] Byron: Well, they do already share a collective consciousness as chickens. 

[01:04:09] Jennifer: Right, but you can make the chickens do better, even if they're all chickens. 

[01:04:13] Byron: But that would be counterproductive because you're keeping the chicken identity alive. 

[01:04:18] Jennifer: Right, so you're saying in a group you help the group of chickens become eagles? 

[01:04:23] Byron: I don't help them become eagles, I make them realize that it's not necessary to play the role of a chicken, that's not what they truly are. 

When people wake up to what they really are, all those disempowering roles become dropped and unnecessary and they can use the energy that they use to feed those false incarnations into a real one and a profound one and a productive one. 

So yes, basically that's the problem with self development. Self development, usually, and we will talk about this later, I suppose, but the problem with self development is that usually they help you become a better chicken. And the idea is not to become a better chicken, but to transcend the role of a chicken. 

[01:05:08] Jennifer: To transcend your self-identified chicken. 

Yeah, very good, Byron, I was wondering if you can tell us, you've obviously worked with peak performance athletes. I wonder if you found that their subconscious state is different than that of the ordinary people. 

[01:05:27] Byron: The answer is no. 

[01:05:28] Jennifer: No. So then in your mind, what makes them much more resilient than what other people could accomplish? 

[01:05:36] Byron: That's a good question. They see the sport as a game, whereas we don't see life as a game. And they approach, I don't mean to say in a game in the sense that they don't take it seriously, on the contrary, they take it very seriously. But they relate to it as a game, as in a challenge, as in the joy of finding solutions to problems and to see in real-time, to be able to measure improvement. 

And we don't relate to our lives like that, unfortunately. We don't relate to it like a game. Most people relate to it like a burden, in fact…

[01:06:13] Jennifer: as a struggle, yeah.

[01:06:14] Byron: Yeah, yes, exactly. But if we were only to relate to it in the same way as athletes relate to a sport, we will soon discover that there is no reason why an ordinary person living an ordinary life couldn't use the same tools that the best athletes used to remain champions year after year. 

There is no reason why we couldn't use the exact same tools in our day-to-day lives. And that's what I want to bring to people is the awareness that there is no difference between the game of sport and the game of life. 

[01:06:50] Jennifer: This reminds me of an interesting video that I saw recently by Alan Watts. He's a spiritual teacher where he says you have to treat everything you do in life as play to find joy in the everyday. Byron, how is your method different than traditional coaching? 

[01:07:07] Byron: Well, mine works. (chuckles) 

Now the main issue with traditional self development methods is that they only address our conscious mind, our surface level self. And this explains why our diets, New Year's resolutions or the method XYZ simply fail or produce at best only limited or temporary results. 

Because all this traditional coaching addresses only 5% of our cognitive activity. But what about the remaining 95%? What's the use of having the finest shovel if you are digging in the wrong place? 

And I'm not saying that their methods and techniques are bad. I'm only saying that they do not address the right person within, that’s what makes them ineffective is that they do not address the part of our mind that is actually conducting the machine and is in the driving seat of our lives. 

So conversely, my methods speak directly to that deeper part. They reach to the core of who we are. They communicate and address our true nature directly. And that is the reason why we can make such profound and lasting changes in a very short time. 

[01:08:19] Jennifer: So you've mentioned that you've seen a lot of people who've gone through burnout, stressful situations, deep life dissatisfaction, but yet you say that these things are actually just symptoms. 

[01:08:32] Byron: Yes, they are the symptoms, they are not the cause. 

[01:08:34] Jennifer: So what is the root cause? 

[01:08:36] Byron: The root cause is that there is almost not a single instant where we do not come under the influence of our subconscious mind. So at least like I said before, 95% of our lives is determined by our internal patterns, our subconscious mind, etc. And this is not an individual problem, but a societal one. 

So we live actually thinking that everything is personal, like, wow, this person was so cold with me, they don't like me, they're superficial, they have a problem, and we turn everything into a personal story. Like, why did that person tell me that? Why did my mother abandon me? etc. 

But in reality, it is not personal. And this is an extraordinarily liberating fact, because everybody is so completely absorbed (with) what's in their subconscious mind by childhood traumas, by generational patterns. 

So when people get mad at you, it is not actually you that they are mad at. You are not the cause of their anger. The cause is something that happened to them when they were four or six years old, but it has nothing to do with you. So they are not addressing themselves to you, but they are addressing maybe their mother or their father or their oppressor. 

So you have to understand that this is not personal at all. And people are just interacting with shadows of the past. And they only discuss and converse through you with patterns and scripts and traumas from the past. And this is a very liberating fact because this will allow you to stop taking on things that do not belong to you. 

[01:10:21] Jennifer: That's what I'm trying to tell my kids - don't take anything too personally. 

[01:10:25] Byron: Can I talk about kids for a moment? 

[01:10:28] Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely. And, Byron, looking at your childhood and how you were raised, what is your philosophy on educating kids? 

[01:10:35] Byron: Kids do not listen to what you say, they listen to what you are. So in order for our kids to be happy and fulfilled, it is very important that you are happy and fulfilled yourself as parents, so that you can lead by experience. 

We must aim to become strong, respectable, happy and loving parents, because love, protection, and space is all that the child needs to grow and thrive. And I think that the lack of quality parenting is a huge part of why society is messed up. 

So, but just understand that your children will not mimic the relationship that you have with them, they will mimic your relationship to yourself. 

[01:11:18] Jennifer: Say that again. 

[01:11:19] Byron: Children will not mimic the relationship that you have to them, they will mimic the way that you relate to yourself instead of to them. And this also ties in with animals, because animals are a reflection of your behavior. 

[01:11:37] Jennifer: Then I wish my dog was here. 

[01:11:40] Byron: And of the way and of the way you condition them. If you want to work, whether it's on an animal, whether it's on your children, don't work directly on them - work on you. 

Because they are a reflection of who you are and of your lifestyle. You condition them to be through all of that, and by being happy and fulfilled, you open up that possibility within them. 

[01:11:40] Jennifer: So this is when I wish that we had met a lot earlier, because my two kids…  

[01:12:05] Byron: It's never too late. 

[01:12:12] Jennifer: Absolutely, it is never too late. 

And actually, I came to the realization that I had to work on myself five years ago when I quit my job. And the kids couldn't believe it, because I remember my daughter asked me at least 10 times, are you really not going to work anymore, Mom? So that was always the impression that she had of me, which is that I was always the one working. 

[01:12:35] Byron: Interesting. You know, all of that is very revealing. If you want to see what's going on the inside, look on the outside. There are hints and signs everywhere you are, the answer is right here in this room. 

[01:12:47] Jennifer: Scary. But hopefully they've learned from my experience and understand that even after you stop working, you can lead a more fulfilling life by doing something else. 

[01:12:59] Byron: Whether you work or not, life goes on.

[01:13:02] Jennifer: Right, it's true. I wanted to also ask you about your public performances. 

I've been to performances that you've done in front of large crowds, two of your shows this year, it’s called Fascination, where you hypnotize dozens of people on stage and you make them do the most outrageous things. 

If you're focused on improving the human condition and developing the collective consciousness, why do you choose the entertainment route to spread your message out to the public? 

[01:13:35] Byron: I don't see myself as an entertainer or what I do as entertainment. 

[01:13:39] Jennifer: Well, we do laugh a lot during this show. 

[01:13:40] Byron: It is true. So this is just a happy accident. All that I do is show people how all those wonderful things work. 

I discovered, like we were talking a bit before, that people tend to learn better by having fun, by participating, and by experiencing things. So if they happen to be entertained by what I show them, so much the better. But that is never the reason why I do what I do. 

However, as you've seen yourself, this fun, playful, and interactive approach seems to work wonders in bringing all kinds of people together. You have younger, you have older people on the stage, you have people from so many different classes, backgrounds, totally different from one another, and yet all those people can connect, come together, and share the same dream. 

So I'd say that the results have been very interesting to witness so far. 

[01:14:38] Jennifer: Also for the audience. And in your last performance, what was the most difficult thing for you and why? 

[01:14:44] Byron: Oh, I think I have to spoil a bit what's happening in the show. Okay, let me spoil without spoiling too much. At one point, I put myself in a deliberate painful situation to show people how I deal with pain. Because the question that I always receive is, can you use hypnosis to heal? 

Hypnosis can't heal you directly, but it can accompany someone to change your relationship to pain and feel well in the midst of pain. Hypnosis can also awaken your own natural healing capacities and create a space in which healing can take place. 

So hypnosis, essentially, and this is what I show the people on stage during that experience. I show how we can unlearn to attach pain to unnecessary things and therefore help with the healing process. We can all unlearn to suffer and still remain effective in the midst of, for example, sickness and various difficulties. 

So on stage, there is a particular demonstration in which I put myself in pain and still manage to relate a powerful story and metaphor at the same time to tell people that what will tilt the balance in favor of personal transformation is not what we learn, but what we unlearn. 

[01:16:09] Jennifer: And it goes back to something what Laurent said, because I remember after the show, my husband says, I don't understand any of it. And Laurent said, there is nothing to understand. 

[01:16:20] Byron: Good point. And Laurent would certainly know because he's been trying to understand for a while. 

[01:16:26] Jennifer: And he still doesn't understand, I guess. He still doesn't. 

Okay, so, Byron, what other superpowers do you have? Besides hypnotism and magnetism, what other superpowers do you have? 

[01:16:39] Byron: I'm disappointed, I thought you were going to say besides levitating. 

[01:16:43] Jennifer: Oh right, and seeing energy fields…

[01:16:43] Byron: I can directly communicate with people's subconscious mind, and so I can easily lead them beyond themselves and help them ignite powerful changes and transformation. And that connection also allows me to see what people really are on the inside, as opposed to what they pretend to be. And I can especially see what they can be. 

But it's important for people to know that I am really just an ordinary guy, that I am an ordinary person who doesn't have any superpowers, but only super techniques that anyone can have access to. And this is really the point of my journey and why I want to share this. 

If I could do this myself, being someone who was, I don't want to say necessarily, had a bad start in life, but suffering from the condition of dyspraxia and being convinced that I was no good. 

You know, if somebody with that background can use those techniques to heal, not only heal, but to thrive, I know anybody else can. 

And it's certainly been my experience (that) by sharing these techniques and methods, firstly with friends and people from my entourage, and then many other people since my beginnings, everybody can live the experience of a miraculous transformation in their lives. And that's the whole point of the journey. 

[01:18:00] Jennifer: So there's only one you. And you're working a lot with companies these days through your company Higher Force. How are you going to reach the millions and billions of people out there? 

[01:18:11] Byron: If you can save one life, you will save the entire universe. I saved the only one I could save - it's mine. 

[01:18:17] Jennifer: Beautiful. Thank you. We talked a lot about consciousness and subconscious. What about the superconscious? Are we going to get there? Are we ever going to get there? (chuckles)

[01:18:28] Byron: Spoiling things. You know, I don't want to complicate things too much. 

Conscious, subconscious, people ask me, well, do you mean unconscious or subconscious? No, there might be a difference between the two in terms of the way we explain it. And now superconscious. And why not Alpha consciousness? 

Let's keep it simple. I just believe that there is a way to rise above you. And when you do that, things will become self-explanatory in ways that words and theories will never be able to make you understand. 

In other words, the difference between reading a book on how to ride a bike and actually sitting on a bike, falling down a couple of times, getting back up and pushing through until you experience that magical click in which you understand for your being how to balance on a bike, that has to do with experience. 

In the realm of hypnosis, the subconscious mind, it's all experience. And yes, the mind wants to understand, the conscious you wants to understand. But that conscious you that understands will never be able. 

Even with the best understanding and comprehension, it will remain 5%. It might be 5 understanding percent, but in the face of the remaining 95, there is no way this is ever going to tilt the balance. On the other hand, when you know there is a knowing that takes place beyond explanation, you may not be able to explain it or talk about it. 

Just like I tell people who attend my workshops, you will not have anything sexy to tell other people on Monday when they ask you, how was it? You may not have a long explanation or an interesting one, but you will be interesting, you will be amazing. And you will radiate something that you may not be able to explain, but anytime you enter a room, make it shine. 

[01:20:27] Jennifer: So this reminds me of a quote by Albert Einstein. He said, “the intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant.” If we could think of the intuitive mind as maybe the subconscious and the rational mind as the conscious. And he said, “we have created a society that honors the servant, but has forgotten the gift.”

So Byron, you've now engaged for over 25 years with hypnotism. What is the most surprising thing that you've discovered about the human condition through your work? 

[01:21:02] Byron: The attachment that we have to pain, the attachment that we have to a false sense of us, as if it was more naturally comforting to stay in a bad situation that we know, as opposed to (getting) to a better one while potentially passing through the unknown. 

My mission in life is to stop the erosion of human potential, to stop the erosion of the power and the inspiration that built this world and our civilization. And to me, I would go as far as saying that true self-actualization is an act of resistance to the sickening compulsion of handing our power away. 

And this is what I'm fighting against, this tendency that people have to keep finding ways to make sure they remain asleep and stuck in ways of becoming more efficient chickens as opposed to waking up to the fact that they are eagles.

[01:22:01] Jennifer: So this morning I had exchanged a few text messages with a good friend of mine who's now going through a burnout and I was wondering if you can recommend some tools and resources online that people could access who are listening to our podcast today. 

[01:22:16] Byron: If you really are interested in knowing how to use hypnosis in the most powerful way, whether as a company or as an individual, get professional life training. 

Because after more than 25 years of intense practice, well, I've come up with my own methods to allow anyone to reach their subconscious mind quickly, easily and produce lasting changes within a few minutes. 

So I offer workshops and live training for both companies and private individuals that give people practical tools which they can apply to any goal they have to experience powerful and positive changes in their life. 

So yes, if you are serious, if you are tired of waiting for things to get better and want to experience this shift, this transformation, without waiting, the workshops or live training I offer would be really the best place to start. 

Other than that, I suggest my audio guides which are designed to help with specific concerns like confidence, weight loss, smoking and stress. These can be purchased from my website. 

[01:23:23] Jennifer: Can you tell us where we can find you online? 

[01:23:25] Byron: Yes, in relation to my shows and private workshops. So everything that is non-company related would be ByronLeon.com and everything that is company-related for HR, for example, want to hire me to work inside of their company HigherForce.com.

[01:23:45] Jennifer: Okay so, Byron Leon is spelled as B-Y-R-O-N-L-E-O-N.com. 

And last but not least, what does the Founder Spirit mean to you? 

[01:23:54] Byron: To me, the Founder Spirit is a particular quality of being that inhabits certain people, especially great leaders. A quality of being that is committed to reaching beyond all that is currently known, seen or heard. 

To reach even beyond ourselves and the world in order to bring into existence what wasn't there before and now can't be denied anymore. 

[01:24:21] Jennifer: Beautiful, thank you. 

We're now coming to the end of our interview, and as you know, we end every episode with a quote. And for this episode, we have a quote from Carl Jung, a Swiss psychoanalyst:

“The privilege of a lifetime is to become who you truly are.”

Byron, many thanks for coming on the Founder Spirit podcast today, and taking us on a journey of self-discovery, and showing us that the highest fulfillment comes from embracing our true selves. 

[01:24:51] Byron: Thank you very much, Jennifer, for having me. A pleasure. 

[01:24:55] Jennifer: If this podcast has been beneficial or valuable to you, feel free to become a patron and support us on Patreon.com, that is P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/TheFounderSpirit. 

As always, you can find us on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, as well as social media and our website at TheFounderSpirit.com. 

The Founder Spirit podcast is a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net-zero and nature positive economy and restoring planetary health. 

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