[00:03] Jennifer Wu: Hi everyone, thanks for listening to The Founder Spirit podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Wu. In this podcast series, I interview exceptional individuals from all over the world with the Founder Spirit, ranging from social entrepreneurs, tech founders, to philanthropists, elite athletes, and more. Together, we'll uncover not only how they manage to succeed in face of multiple challenges, but also who they are as people and their human story.

If this podcast has been beneficial or valuable to you, feel free to become a patron and support us on Patreon.com, that is P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/TheFounderSpirit. As always, you can find us on Apple, Google, Amazon and Spotify, as well as social media and our website at TheFounderSpirit.com.

The following episode was recorded during the 2023 Villars Symposium held by the Villars Institute, where I recorded several short interviews over a period of 3 days. The Founder Spirit Podcast is proud to be a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net-zero economy and restoring planetary health.

“There are more than 250 million children in the world (who) don't have access to education.  Education is a ticket to prosperity in life - not just wealth, but access to information, access to opportunities that make an impact in the world.” 

“At a time when the pace of development and deployment of technology is so rapid that governments, individuals and citizens and even organizations, have difficulty adapting to the development of technology, it is very important to develop some core skills to be a productive citizen of the 21st century on a global scale.”

“ChatGPT and AI, etc. have the potential for enormous benefit but also enormous abuse. So eventually, whether the net outcome of these technologies is a net positive or a net negative is going to depend on how we manage, how we maximize the benefit and minimize the detrimental aspects of the technology. And a lot depends on governance.”

Our special guest is Professor Subra Suresh, (Founder and) President of the Global Learning Council (committed to advancing the use of technology to improve the outcomes for learners) and former Director of the National Science Foundation. Subra was recently awarded the National Medal of Science by President Biden, the highest honor accorded to a U.S. scientist, for his work as a transformative educator and pioneering research. 

Subra also served as the President of Carnegie Mellon University and Nanyang Technological University in Singapore, Dean of Engineering at MIT and Professor of Engineering at Brown University.

What are the key challenges and the core skillsets we need to develop given the rapid development of artificial intelligence and how can we provide access to education for over 250 million children around the world? Well, let’s talk to him and find out.

Welcome to the Founder Spirit!

[03:15] Subra Suresh: Thank you, Jennifer, thanks for having me. 

[03:18] Jennifer: It's my pleasure. Growing up India, Subra, what were some of your formative experiences that helped to shape your life trajectory? 

[03:30] Subra: So I spent the first 21 years of my life in South India, and then I left for the US. Culturally at that time, in the 60s and 70s, India was a very different country than what it is today. In a span of 50 years, if I reflect back from where we are today, I feel like from a technology point of view, I have moved about 200 years worth of experiences. 

It was a wonderful experience, very challenging. And I come from a relatively modest background, I would say lower middle class family. Neither of my parents had a university degree. So in that sense, I was the first one in my immediate family to go to university. And a lot of credit goes to my mother, who, despite the fact she did not have the opportunity to go to university, very much wanted to make sure that I had the right kind of education. So I owe a lot to her. 

[04:34] Jennifer: You had completed your undergraduate studies at the Institute of Technology India, after which you left for the US at age 21 with less than $100 in cash and a one-way plane ticket which was purchased with a loan. Can you describe how you felt coming from India at that time? 

[05:02] Subra: So I was very fortunate to get into IIT or Indian Institute of Technology in Madras, which is a very competitive process for the whole country. Today, millions of students take the exam, a few thousand get in. 

At that time, so this was 1976-1977, most of the students from my cohort, the immediate next step, for them was to go to graduate school, and it was inevitably in the US. So I applied only to those universities that did not require an application fee, which at that time was $15. And so I applied to a few universities, and I was fortunate to get offers from most of them. 

And I chose Iowa State University because it gave me a full scholarship. So my maiden trip to the US was the first time I had been in an airplane. At that time, even acquiring a one-way plane ticket was not an easy process. So there was a scholarship, which was essentially an interest-free loan, which enabled me to make the trip. 

50 years later, in 2022, I was the commencement speaker for the undergraduates at Iowa State. And I made the point to the audience and also to the people I met with, this is one of the remarkable things about the US. They didn't know who I was, this is before the Internet, they had trust in me, gave me a full scholarship and provided me opportunities that were stepping stones for later career without really requiring or demanding anything from me in return, which is quite remarkable. 

And I would say that it was almost like being born in a new planet all over again at age 21. And these experiences, especially as you reflect back decades later, they give you so many data points about humanity and how life experiences evolve, sometimes by design and many times by serendipity. 

[07:18] Jennifer: That must have been a culture shock for you to go from India and to the US in the late 70s.

[07:24] Subra: It’s a culture shock in every way. I wouldn't say shock, it was an experience, and it turned out to be a positive experience in the end. 

So I had never owned a sweater or a jacket because I didn't need to. But the daily high in Ames, Iowa in January was -5 or -10, so that was an experience. Secondly, I went from a big city of a few million people to a college town where the population during school year, it was about 50,000. That was a big shock - the entire city was probably about 2-3 square mile at that time anyway. 

40 some years ago, Iowa was primarily a homogeneous community and we made wonderful friends. People were very friendly and kind, and so that was a very good experience. 

[08:15] Jennifer: Subra, you founded the Global Learning Council in 2014 while serving as the President of Carnegie Mellon University. What inspired you to found this institution? 

[08:31] Subra: So when just preceding my role as President of CMU, I served as Director of the National Science Foundation in Washington, DC. And the NSF had sponsored research into what is broadly called the science of learning in a number of different centers at universities across the US. So while I was NSF Director, I had the opportunity to visit many of these centers. 

And the idea behind these centers is the latest in technology cannot only be used to deliver content to eager learners, but equally, research into learning itself can inform us about the way in which we can deliver the content that maximizes learning outcomes - that is quite important. 

So when I went to CMU, because CMU has had a history of research into these areas, we thought, we will launch this. At that time, MOOCs or the Massive Online Open courses were also becoming quite popular, so we thought it was the right time to launch it at CMU. 

So we had the heads of entities such as EdX, which is a nonprofit from MIT, (and) Coursera, which is a for-profit spin-off from Stanford, and many other entities, several leaders of universities, we brought them together. I chaired it for a few years, and just this year, the Villars Institute in Switzerland provided a home and a secretariat and is serving as a host to GLC. 

And between 2014 and now, so many changes have happened in the world. One, technology has advanced quite a bit. The role of technological advances such as AI, data science, machine learning, ChatGPT, etc. have come on the horizon. 

And even more importantly, the global community went through something called the COVID-19 pandemic, which drastically altered not only our lives for 2-3 years, but also our perspectives on life itself. And some would argue in an irreversible manner. And in light of the experiences that we all had during COVID we decided that we will re-focus, re-sharpen and re-examine the vision and mission of GLC. 

And for example, during COVID all students and learners of all ages were forced to learn online, there was no other choice. But yet half of the world population of 8 billion people today cannot get online - they don't have access. So as we move forward, it's not only equality, it's not only content that can be accessed online, it is how to provide that access to the vast majority of people. 

So the GLC has refocused its mission to connect people. It's a small entity, so it cannot address global challenges on its own. But if it can bring together people with issues they all care about, so that the people who are seeking solutions can be put in touch with people who have a record of accomplishment at scale in providing solutions to complex problem, I think GLC would achieve its objectives. 

[12:00] Jennifer: The mission of the Global Learning Council is to provide access to education. I think you're absolutely right that in the Western Hemisphere we take education for granted, but it's still one of the SDGs, and we forget that education is actually a human right, and many people living in developing countries don't have access to education. 

So how can we support you in achieving the mission of providing access to education?

[12:33] Subra: The first GLC meeting in conjunction with the Villars Institute was held this week. And we have people who come from all over the world, we have the Minister for Education, Information and Communication from Rwanda. Rwanda is a small country in Africa that was devastated by civil war and a genocide just less than 30 years ago. They emerged out of it, and education is one of the important things to elevate the population to successful jobs in the 21st century. 

We also had a big representation from India, where there are 250 million school children. And India is now the most populous country in the world - there are many challenges. Despite the fact that education is viewed as a right for all citizens of India, still there are students who don't have access to the education. 

What was heartening to me at the GLC meeting was to see people who are passionately committed to changing the situation, not just with 10 or 20 people, but at scale. For example, one of whom has helped to facilitate 2 million mid-day meals to middle school children in India through a public private partnership. So what good is education, what possibility exists if children go hungry? And that's a remarkable effort at scale across the country, that's just one example. 

Another participant is providing access to young girls who otherwise would not go to school so that they can go to not only schools but top schools. And if they do well, this will not only transform the lives of 1-2 individuals, but it'll transform the lives of many families over a period of time.

So I think the goal of GLC is to bring together people who have done that very well in the Western hemisphere with those who are doing it, but at very small scale with enormous complex challenges in different parts of the world. Many of these people have never met before and GLC can be a conduit to bring them together. 

Then we've also engaged multinational companies that have a footprint in more than 100 countries and connect them so that they can use their infrastructure, their technologies and their global connections to facilitate developments in the area of education that is not possible for a university or a school to do. So these are some of the aspirations of GLC. 

[15:19] Jennifer: As your mother had instilled the Importance of education in you, what do you think is the role of education and skills in the present day because the world is changing so fast? And especially with the rapid development in artificial intelligence, many jobs will be eliminated. 

What is the role of education and skills, and how can we teach the next generation to adapt to those rapid changes? 

[15:49] Subra: There are more than 250 million children in the world who don't have access to education. Education is a ticket to prosperity in life - not just wealth, but access to information, access to opportunities that make an impact in the world. And so it's essential. 

And especially groups that are historically been under-privileged and under-represented necessarily need access to education, I think that's very critical. In many parts of the world, education of children, especially girls, can have a profound impact on socioeconomic development of the region. So that's one. 

With technology coming on the horizon, I would say that at a time when the pace of development and deployment of technology is so rapid that governments, individuals and citizens and even organizations have difficulty adapting to the development of technology, it is very important to develop some core skills to be a productive citizen of the 21st century on a global scale. 

These skills include the ability to think quantitatively, whether you study mathematics or something else doesn't matter, but quantitative skills. Ability to look at different aspects, sometimes competing views on the same issue, and make rational decisions depending one's informed set of ideas. 

The issues that the future generation will face are so complex and so global that the ability to make decisions that span a spectrum of possibilities, rather than black and white. In other words, probabilistic thinking rather than deterministic thinking, where you have many shades of gray and you have to pick, based on your information, what is the right decision, fully knowing that decision only has less than 100% probability of success, sometimes less than 50%. So I think the ability to understand the complexity of issues and make informed decisions, is going to be important. 

And no challenge can be done alone by one individual, one organization, maybe even one country. So, given that, the ability to connect with others who come from very different parts of the world, with very different perspectives and beliefs, who may not even agree with us, is going to be very important. 

And last but not least, I think communication skills are critical - because the ideas are not enough, the ability to convince somebody of the merit of one's ideas is going to be critical. 

[18:31] Jennifer: Yuval Harari said that AI could potentially destroy humanity, what is your perspective on the current development and the pace of development of AI? 

[18:41] Subra: I've read Yuval's books and listened to his speeches. If we look at where technology is today in the 4th Industrial Revolution and compare that to the three previous industrial revolutions, we know from the last 200 years that every intended benefit of technology is accompanied by many unintended consequences. People will use the technology unintentionally the wrong way or intentionally abuse it. 

ChatGPT and AI, etc. have the potential for enormous benefit but also enormous abuse. So eventually, whether the net outcome of these technologies is a net positive or a net negative is going to depend on how we manage, how we maximize the benefit and minimize the detrimental aspects of the technology. 

And a lot depends on governance. I think there are two challenges we have at this time with AI, unlike previous industrial revolutions. One is the pace of change is so rapid, governments, organizations, leaders are not able to catch up and the adopters of this technology are catching up much faster than the regulators and the policymakers - that's one challenge. 

The second challenge is that unlike previous technologies that improved efficiency, economic prosperity eventually, and also minimize human suffering in hard labor here, there is something fundamental and profoundly different. 

Because machines will increasingly make more and more decisions that affect and impact and influence day-to-day human life, there is a potential danger that humanity itself and basic human characteristics could be altered because we take aggregated massive data to create machine decisions. And that data may not have the nuance of what makes each one of us an individual.

And will machines have the capacity to understand and appreciate that nuance? The fear is that if the speed of governance, speed of policy versus the speed of development is such that if machines make more decisions, will we have an opportunity to intervene at least? Will you have the opportunity to course correct before some serious damage is done? 

And last but not least, who authenticates and validates the veracity of information that goes into machine made decisions? Do you want to leave it to for profit companies, nonprofit organizations, or governments? Each one of those have their own limitations and constraints. 

So how do you bring a global conversation to do this and who's in charge? And I think that's the issue we have right now. Despite all the challenges, we have a lot of smart people in the world. Being an optimist, I would hope that rational people will get together and create a framework whereby we can maximize the benefits of technology. 

[21:56] Jennifer: In our last days of the Villars Symposium, what have been some of your key takeaways this year?

[22:04] Subra: From the GLC meeting and the Villars Symposium, there are a few things that I find quite refreshing. One is not only the focus on critical and complex issues facing the world, affecting multi-generational future and the planet's future, it’s also looking at the urgency and the need for action. 

There are many venues in the world that do this. I think one of the unique things about the way this is happening is that we have large number of young people aged 13-19, and it is their future. And even though we all have a stake in it and a responsibility to address this, I think engaging these young people and looking at the quality of these young people gives a lot of reason for optimism for the future. And I would say that's my biggest takeaway from this. 

[22:59] Jennifer: I would agree with you 100%, they're very impressive group of individuals. And last but not least, what does the Founder Spirit mean to you? 

[23:08] Subra: So I think it's always difficult to be a founder of anything. For every reason you want to do something rightly, there will be people, including many of your close friends, who would think why it's not a good idea to do this. 

And so it takes a level of thought and analysis to look at all angles, so that whatever you set up for success and inevitably people will fail, no matter how well-intentioned and well-prepared they are. And I think willing to take that risk is going to be important. 

I have one experience that I will mention. So about eleven years ago, when I was at the National Science Foundation, I decided to start a program called the NSF Innovation Corp or i-Corp, C-O-R-P-S spelled like Peace Corps. And I thought I had a watertight rationale to launch it in 2011. 

Just a week before this, we had a big discussion with my direct reports and some friends, and most of them felt it was not necessary for this program to be created at that time. I almost reached a point the night before I was going to make a go no go decision, I had serious doubts whether I should launch it. 

In the end, I decided to go with it. I'll fall on my sword if it fails. But with the benefit of hindsight now eleven years later, it has become, if not the most successful program in the last ten years, one of the most successful programs in NSF history. 

And I was just thinking, it was so close whether I was going to do it or not. If I had made the decision, if I had backed out of it, I would have missed out, and many of the people who received support from this would have missed out on a lot of opportunities. So sometimes in many of these decisions, it's very close and it's not easy. 

And many people fail, and many people succeed after they fail many times. So I think there is a particular DNA, a particular behavior that goes in the founder spirit that is unique. It pushes the boundaries of human creativity and desire to do something, it’s also pushes the boundaries of human intellect and potential. 

[25:37] Jennifer: Thank you so much for joining us today. Subra. I wish you the best of luck and thank you for taking the time. 

[25:44] Subra: Thank you very much. 

[25:47] Jennifer: If this podcast has been beneficial or valuable to you, feel free to become a patron and support us on Patreon.com, that is P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/TheFounderSpirit. 

As always, you can find us on Apple, Google, Amazon and Spotify, as well as social media and our website at TheFounderSpirit.com.

The Founder Spirit Podcast is proud to be a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net zero economy and restoring planetary health.

[26:27] END OF AUDIO

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