‍[00:02] Jennifer: Hi everyone, thanks for listening to The Founder Spirit podcast. I'm your host, Jennifer Wu. In this podcast series, I interview exceptional individuals from all over the world with the founder spirit, ranging from social entrepreneurs, tech founders, to philanthropists, elite athletes and more. Together, we'll uncover not only how they managed to succeed in facing multiple challenges, but also who they are as people and their human story. 

The following episode was recorded during the Villars Summit. The Founder Spirit Podcast is proud to be a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net-zero (and nature-positive) economy and restoring planetary health.

“As a conservation scientist, my passion is to do science that can help push forward protection for species.”

“But really what drew me to sharks was the fact that they are so incredibly threatened. Sharks are older than the North Star, sharks have been around long before dinosaurs and trees. And to think that now, we've managed to wipe out over 70% of the global shark population just in the human lifespan, it's incredible in a very sad way.”

“Marine conservation problems, all of the problems our planet is facing, they're not biology problems, they're not wildlife problems alone, they're people problems.”

Joining us today is Arzucan Askin, affectionately known as Zuzu, an interdisciplinary conservation scientist, Rolex Scholar, and National Geographic Explorer, specializing in the cultural and ecological connections between marine wildlife, ocean ecosystems, and coastal communities. She is also a technical diver with a passion for preserving sharks, the ocean’s most threatened species.

Just what drives Zuzu to work across the globe to create lasting change for the future of  our oceans and planet? Well, let’s talk to her & find out. 

Zuzu, I'm always really curious about how people grew up and what has had the most impact in their lives, in their childhood, during their formative years. So why don't we start with that question? What were some of your formative experiences?

[02:21] Zuzu Askin: It's a great question. 

So my parents were Turkish immigrants that moved to Germany in the late 60s during that wave of Turkish migrants that were invited over to help rebuild the country after the war because Germany had a huge shortage of labour at the time. 

And my grandparents were only supposed to come for work and then return to Turkey. And they never did. And yeah, I was born as sort of a second-generation immigrant far away from the ocean. A lot of my formative years were spent in a big city in Berlin and then Germany, a place with a lot of history. 

But I spent all of my summers in Turkey and I learned swimming before I learned walking. I was always a water baby. As a kid, I was the kid that would run away from home to go sit in ponds or collect insects or climb up trees. 

I think one of the most formative things was growing up in a place that wasn't mine and growing up between cultures. So my mom's side of the family has Greek ancestry. And so I always, as a kid, as a teenager, learned to navigate between different worlds, between different cultures, between different languages and between different religions. 

And I think that's also why I'm an interdisciplinary conservation scientist, because I've never learned to settle for just one thing. I've always had to be many things and in many different worlds.

[03:36] Jennifer: And so when is it that you realized that you want to be a marine biologist or an interdisciplinary marine scientist?

[03:47] Zuzu: Yeah, I think I always knew that I wanted to work in the ocean. I think growing up, I didn't think that people like me became marine biologists because obviously a lot of my peers and colleagues even now, they've grown up by the sea, their parents are sailors and divers or scientists as well. So it was a bit of an unconventional journey into this field. 

But I think I knew at the age of five when I met my first turtle that, you know, I want to be a mermaid. I wanted to be underwater. And then I started diving also pretty early on. I was 15 when I got my first diving qualifications. So now it's been over a decade of diving for me, which is amazing.

[04:25] Jennifer: So you started as a diver and then you moved on to be a marine biologist or conservation scientist. Can you tell us what drew you to the sea? What is the magic in the ocean?

[04:40] Zuzu: I think it's this feeling of the unknown, this sort of sense of wonder, the fact that it's a different world and not everybody gets to see. I remember distinctly as a kid, we have a huge seagrass meadow behind our house. 

So my first sort of diving experience was as a kid shoving rocks in my bikini trying to sink down so that I could sit in the seagrass and see all the little fish and all the seahorses and other creatures that were swimming in this vast green area. 

And it really looks like a meadow on land. It's green, it's lush, it's swaying with the currents. So it's like being in an underwater forest. And that was sort of my first moment where I thought, wow, I want to be in this world more than just for a few seconds holding my breath. 

[05:26] Jennifer: Right, right. So fast forward, your work has taken you from the Arctic to the equator. Can you maybe walk us through that trajectory? 

[05:40] Zuzu: Yeah. So I actually did my undergraduate degree in human geography and environmental governance. So I came to ocean sciences and marine conservation through the lens of policy, so looking at law of the seas, illegal wildlife trade, biodiversity management. 

And then following that, I worked with the World Bank West Africa Coastal Area program, looking at fisheries in Western African countries and coastal climate resilience. And then I did a master's at the University of Oxford in conservation science. 

And then I received a scholarship from Rolex that covered a year of advanced dive training, marine science in the field. And that scholarship took me around the world. And it was the beginning of my journey in exploration and science at a much more advanced level than I did previously. 

During that year, I sailed around Svalbard on a small 37 foot fiberglass sailing vessel going through ice looking for blue whales and beluga whales doing acoustic monitoring. Previously I'd worked a lot on coral projects in different countries. And then that was also the year where I really honed in a lot more on shark research and shark conservation related projects in the field.

[06:54] Jennifer: So which takes us to, I know that you want to talk about shark conservation. I know that you're now working on this project called Miyaru in the Maldives. Many of us see these creatures as dangerous animals. You know, we don't necessarily want to be swimming next to the shark or meet them face to face in the water. 

Why is it so important to you to work on shark conservation? You've worked on a lot of things, obviously, and this is your new project. So why shark conservation?

[07:29] Zuzu: Yeah, it's a beautiful question. I met my first shark, I think, when I was 12 in Turkey, it was a dead deep sea shark, a six-gill shark that had washed up on shore. 

And I remember thinking then like, wow, this creature is so beautiful and fascinating. Everybody was scared. And I was the little nerd kid that was amazed by this big creature that no one had seen before. 

And I've worked on corals. I've had the pleasure to work with whales and a lot of different ecosystems and species. And I came to shark conservation out of love for sharks. My first dive with sharks was when I was 16 in Malaysia, when I met my first shark underwater, alive. 

But really what drew me to sharks was the fact that they are so incredibly threatened. So sharks have been around for longer than trees have. Some of the earliest shark species out-date the North Star. 

So sharks are older than the North Star, sharks have been around long before dinosaurs and trees. And to think that now, we've managed to wipe out over 70% of the global shark population just in the human lifespan, it's incredible in a very sad way. 

As a conservation scientist, my passion is to do science that can help push forward protection for species. And some of the shark species that I love have had an over 90% global population decline. So that means that in my lifetime, they might go extinct and my grandchildren might never get to see them. 

So I made it my life's mission, so to speak, from the beginning of my life really, because I'm still relatively young, to do everything I can to make sure that sharks don't go extinct, to make sure that critically endangered species don't go extinct, and that the last pockets that we have of these animals are kept safe for future generations. 

And aside from the science work, a lot of the conservation work needs to reconnect people with sharks. Like you said, a lot of people are really scared of them. It's amazing really because most people want to see a lion. They want to see a tiger or a crocodile. But when it comes to a shark, people are scared. 

So a big part of shark conservation work is helping people to reconnect with these animals and to see them through a different lens. And for me, when I see a shark, I think it's cute. I think it's beautiful. I think oceanic white-tipped sharks and hammerhead sharks are probably some of my favorites. But I really love each species for their unique little quirks. 

[09:48] Jennifer: Which type of sharks are you studying the most? What's the most common species there?

[09:54] Zuzu: Well, the Maldives has over 30 species of sharks and rays. We work currently on building up a national level research initiative and citizen science program for all of the predatory sharks. 

So everything that is not a whale shark, some of the most common species are spinner sharks. There's a lot of tiger sharks. The Maldives is actually home to the world's largest aggregation of tiger sharks ever recorded, residents.

They have great hammerhead sharks, scalloped hermit sharks, a lot of deep sea shark species, some really rare ones as well. And then a lot of the big highly migratory pelagic species like oceanic white tips.

[10:30] Jennifer: Fascinating. I've never been to the Maldives. 

[10:32] Zuzu: Well, I think it's time for you to visit because it’s really like the Galapagos of the Indian Ocean. And it's one of the last places standing for sharks in the Indian Ocean, also globally. It's one of the few shark sanctuaries that we have in the world. 

And coming from the Mediterranean, where we have lost almost all of the sharks, it's an immense privilege to be working in the Maldives. But I also like to highlight to people like, look what happened in my part of the world, look what happened in the Med because we didn't protect them. So really we need to do much more to make sure that the future of sharks is guaranteed.

[11:07] Jennifer: So you're also a technical diver and you're a free diver. And (a) technical diver is for people that have gone below 50 meters. Is that the definition of a technical diver?

[11:20] Zuzu: Yes and no. So the definition is to be either extending past recreational diving limits and or to be using specialist diving equipment or gas mixtures. 

So most scuba divers when they dive, they will use compressed air, same air that we breathe on the surface. In technical diving, we use other gas mixtures. So we'll enrich the air that we breathe with a higher oxygen content or we'll mix in helium or other gases to be able to extend our time at the bottom.

[11:49] Jennifer: Okay, so what’s the deepest that you’ve ever gone?

[11:52] Zuzu: Only 60 meters. But I've spent four hours consecutively underwater on a rebreather, which is sort of a special set of diving equipment that takes the air that we exhale and instead of putting it out in the water, it feeds it back through a loop and a filter system called a scrubber and it removes the carbon dioxide. 

So you can rebreathe the same air that you exhale.

[12:12] Jennifer: And as a free diver, how far have you gone?

[12:14] Zuzu: Around 30 meters so not that deep. My friends and colleagues, they go to 40-50-60.

[12:20] Jennifer:  Sure, it still sounds pretty deep to me. (chuckles) And are you tethered to something?

[12:26] Zuzu: Depends. So if I'm free diving out in the open ocean with sharks or whales, no, but if we're training, then we use a line attached to a buoy and a weight with a small lanyard.

[12:35] Jennifer: It reminds me of that movie with Jean Reno, the Big Blue.

How do you train to be a free driver by the way? Do you need to have exceptionally strong lungs to begin with? Like is there a genetic element?

[12:52] Zuzu: Yes and no. So it's a bit like other sports. 

You know, some people are genetically blessed and have it easier and some just need to train harder. But generally with freediving, a lot of it is breathing exercises. So learning actually how to breathe properly, how to fully use all of the muscles in your abdomen and in your thorax. 

It's about learning to calm the mind and the heart rate and the breathing. And then a lot of it is spending time in water. So getting the body comfortable, being immersed, being under pressure, equalizing in the right way and kind of learning to really lean into that way of diving. 

It's a lot more on the mind than it is on the body, but it is also a sport, so yeah.

[13:32] Jennifer: Right, so do you do a lot of Pranayama yoga?

[13:36] Zuzu: I actually barely do any yoga. I should because it would be very good.

A lot of freedivers do yoga and breathwork exercises. I'm sort of a little more cowboy in that sense. I just go and I do it. I find it really hard to concentrate in yoga, like I get very distracted very quickly. Need to be moving, need to be doing things. 

[13:56] Jennifer: That's normal, that’s like most people actually.

[13:59] Zuzu: Exactly. But when you see a whale or a shark, you forget about everything.

I forget that I'm even free diving or holding my breath. I'll be so excited and so sort of in awe. And then I only realize when I actually have the urge to breathe and then I go, oh, yeah, right. I should probably go up to the surface. It would be good to breathe again.

[14:16] Jennifer: What's the longest that you've held your breath in a dive?

[14:19] Zuzu: Not that long, probably just around maybe two and half-ish minutes because generally I'm swimming with animals so it's hard to hold your breath for much longer because you're in movement. 

[14:30] Jennifer: And what was that like with the blue whales in the Arctic water?

[14:33] Zuzu: It was incredible. I mean, they are huge animals, right? They're some of the largest living animals on the planet. 

And the blue whales we saw were all bigger than the sailing vessel we were on. So we were outsized. And you see them popping up next to the boat and they look like this prehistoric creature. They're gigantic. 

I actually got one of the whales exhaling and then the wind pushed all the mucus onto my jacket. So I smelled like whale breath for a solid week. Let me tell you, it's not very pleasant. But I was so excited that I had blue whale snot all over myself. 

But it's incredible. It's such a joy to be around these big animals and to realize how spatially aware they are, how gentle they are. When they make eye contact, when they move around, it's an energy that honestly does not compare to anything else that I've ever seen or experienced.

[15:23] Jennifer: I once, I think 10 years ago, went snorkeling in the Philippines and I followed this deep sea turtle and it was really beautiful. It was really, really beautiful. 

And you think this thing that is so awkward in land, in the water, it's so graceful. It's like a bird, you know, like the bird flying in the sky, but under the water the sea turtle was just so peaceful and elegant. It’s a beautiful feeling.

Who inspired you actually to date?

[15:52] Zuzu: I mean, I think the obvious answer would be Sylvia (Earle). You know, she's really paved the way forward for many of us women. 

And sometimes when I have hard times in the field or when it's very rare actually in my case, but when it does happen that I feel I'm being treated differently for being female or for being young, I always think back to Sylvia and I'm thinking, okay, Sylvia did this back in the early days where really there was barely any women in this field and I can do it too.

[16:17] Jennifer: I hope you get a chance to tell her that later today.

[16:19] Zuzu: Yeah I probably should. I've had coffee with her all morning and we didn't really talk about any of this. We talked about whales and science and tuna and fish. She's lovely. She's fantastic.

[16:28] Jennifer: She’s fantastic. I saw that you also went to UWC (United World College). Can you talk about UWC and how that might have… 

[16:37] Zuzu: Yeah, it was transformative. I was in Hong Kong. I had the best two years of my life. I fell in love with Hong Kong. I knew nothing about Hong Kong when I had gone. 

I really wanted to go to that UWC because it had a scientific diving program and the coral monitoring program. And you know, most people don't even know that Hong Kong has corals. It has amazing reefs. The visibility is just very poor because it's urban. But it was incredible. 

So I got to lead the coral monitoring program, the early beginnings of my work as a project leader and a young aspiring marine scientist. And we got to do a lot of reef monitoring in Hong Kong. We went to Malaysia for dive training and projects. 

And yeah, living and learning with 200 students from 100 countries is amazing. And for me as a person that's, you know, grew up between cultures and had this upbringing and never felt like I belonged, I found my people, my community. It was all kids like me who were nerds, who were sort of the odd ones out in school, the ones that were driven by crazy passions and would stay up late at night to work on projects. 

And so it was amazing as a young teenager to find that community, while everybody else in Berlin was going out clubbing and getting drunk, we were in Hong Kong, counting corals, you know, doing data analysis at 2 a.m. coming up with projects to save the world. 

So it was amazing. If I ever have kids, they are definitely going. (chuckles)

[18:05] Jennifer: Well, there you go. Can you talk about the KOGIA project, which is this nonprofit oceanic media library and production studio that's dedicated to protecting marine life?

[18:17] Zuzu: It's a beautiful initiative set up by my friends, Kareem and Naseem, who are both filmmakers and photographers. 

The idea is basically that photographers and videographers have thousands of hours of video footage and thousands of images sitting on their hard drives that never get used. And so we're working on convincing a bunch of them to donate their footage so that conservationists on the front lines who often don't have the funding available to hire media teams can have free access to high quality visuals.

And I joined KOGIA as the science communications lead, so helping to bridge the gap between storytelling and science, because obviously I'm a conservation scientist, also a storyteller and finding ways to bring more scientists onto this platform so that they can use high quality images to tell their stories. 

I wear lots of different hats. In addition to KOGIA, I also run my own graphic design, art and science communication studio called Sunfish. 

[19:15] Jennifer: Yes, Sunfish Studios.

[19:17] Zuzu: Because I love being creative and it's a beautiful way to complement my scientific work with art, illustration, science communication, and coming up with creative ways to turn complex ideas into beautiful visuals and narratives that help connect people with it.

[19:33] Jennifer: That's beautiful. So are you making a book out of it? Is that going to come out as a book? Is it a comic strip? What is it?

[19:41] Zuzu: Yeah, well, with Sunfish I do different things. So I do scientific illustrations and intro graphics to help explain complex concepts and topics to audiences visually. 

I also help scientists to communicate their work. Because some scientists do brilliant work, but they are really struggling to communicate it in a way that engages non-scientific audiences. So I work with scientists to tell their stories. 

I also do short science communications projects. So I just recently had a project out with National Geographic called Sharks Are Older Than the North Star. It’s a short video explaining the importance of sharks and the history of sharks. And there's a lot more little snippets of content coming out like that as well. 

And then I also do art. So I'll be selling a few pieces of my artwork coming up in the next month that I have to working on. So it's really an interdisciplinary creative studio that does a little bit of everything, all under the mission of making the oceans and science and sustainability more accessible through creativity.

[20:42] Jennifer: You can really do many things besides just science.

[20:45] Zuzu: I've been able to do just one thing. I think my life would be a lot easier if I could settle just on one thing. I think my life would be a lot easier if I could settle on just one thing.

[20:50] Jennifer: That's me as well actually, it keeps me interested. 

Anthroposea, you co-founded Anthroposea, which is a multidisciplinary initiative exploring the intersection of humans and oceans with a focus on marine diversity, culture, and climate. 

Can you talk about the intersectionality of humans and oceans because you also work a lot, I imagine, with the coastal communities? 

[21:17] Zuzu: Yes. Connecting humans and oceans or looking at the thread that connects the two has always been a really integral part of my work because conservation is nothing without people. 

And a lot of marine science and marine biology generally is highly focused on the animal and isolation from humans. But really marine conservation problems, all of the problems our planet is facing, they're not biology problems, they're not wildlife problems alone, they're people problems. They have social, economic, legal, political origin generally. 

And so the idea behind Anthroposea is to look at the human ocean, is to look at what is happening with our underwater world in the age of the Anthropocene, this global era of planetary change. And the idea behind it is to reconnect people with the ocean and to look at cultural connections with the sea and how these have changed over time. 

So I don't know if Sylvia (Earle) talked about whales, but whales, for example, are brilliant ambassadors for Anthroposea because they're a species that was once regarded just as commercial. They were seen as a resource for their oil and blubber and they were basically like a fish stock and people didn't value them as more than that. 

And then over time, our perception of whales has changed and they've shifted in our collective perception towards the sentient beings with culture, with language, with connection and emotions. 

And that's been a huge global shift in perception, but also in our cultural practices. We no longer use whales, but whales, you know, they powered street lamps, they powered corsets and fashion. They're really a species that intersected with human culture and industry and innovation and design for decades. 

And so the idea behind Anthroposea is to really start looking at more of these stories and narratives that look at humans and wildlife underwater and the way they meet each other, in ideally sustainable ways, but also in the ways that need to be changed. 

It's all about bringing culture and art and history back into the conversation about wildlife and to not look at the oceans in isolation from people and human societies. And the idea behind it is not just to look at how humans are impacting wildlife, it's also to look at how the ocean is shaping us, how it's shaping our culture, our practices and our civilizations.

[23:32] Jennifer: Hmm, fascinating. And what do you plan to do with Anthroposea?

[23:36] Zuzu: Yeah. So at the moment we have a few things in the pipeline. So we're currently fundraising for a short Anthropocene film that will be screened at UNOC in Nice, coming up in June. And it's a film using the story of whales, sharks and cod to highlight human-ocean intersections. 

I also have a project that I'm currently working on that will be out soon called Wild Med - Reimagining an Ancient Sea. And it's a storytelling project, not a science project this time, about the Mediterranean.

Most people think about the Mediterranean as dead, as lifeless. And they only associate it with ancient temples, forced migration, maybe seafood. And so the idea behind this project and film and online campaign is to rewild the public imagination. It's to show that the Mediterranean is alive - it's full of biodiversity. 

I mean, it's got over 15,000 species, 20-30% of which are endemic. So they're found nowhere else on earth. And it's home to around 18% of the world's known marine species, but it only covers 0.3% of the ocean surface. So it's a tiny part of the ocean, but it's home to so much life. 

And we have forgotten this collectively. We have this, call it ecological amnesia, where people nowadays, especially kids growing up in the Mediterranean coastline, they don't know a Mediterranean that is wild, they don't know a Med full of fish and whales and sharks. They know a very empty Mediterranean. 

So it's about bringing back this perception of the Mediterranean that is alive so  that hopefully we can catalyze more conservation action to protect what is still there.

[25:10] Jennifer: So do you think we can rewild the Med?

[25:13] Zuzu: I would love to. I think with some species we can. It's going to be a multi-billion dollar effort and it's going to be a long effort. But with some species we can. With others it's going to be harder. Like we can't really breed whales or sharks of that size and captivity and then release them. 

But with some fish species and some coral species, if we can find ways to overcome some of the climate challenges, I think we can definitely bring a little bit of that wilderness back. But a lot of it is also just protection. If we protect the Med more, some of these species will bounce back and then the conditions will grow.

[25:48] Jennifer: Do you think there's a chance that if we take care of the Med, that there's a chance that the whales and the shark might migrate back to the Med? Is there a possibility or are we gone too far off?

[26:02] Zuzu: I think sharks, some species, if they are protected enough, they will be able to reproduce and bounce back a little bit. 

But the whale is hard because it's such an industrialized sea. There's so much shipping activity that the surface layer of the Mediterranean is very busy. And the remaining sperm whales that are there in the Hellenic trench off the coast of Greece are intersecting a lot with massive cargo shipping routes.

So a lot of the wind protection, the mud really goes back to changing some of our practices and giving the sea a little bit of room to breathe. And we saw that during COVID. It was incredible during COVID. Istanbul Bosphorus was full of dolphins, which on a normal busy day in Istanbul doesn't happen. 

But I think there is hope. I think with more innovation and global shipping changing in a better direction, hopefully, and some of our practices and fishing practices changing, hopefully. I think there is still hope for the Med. I know a lot of people have given up, but I refuse to give up.

[27:00] Jennifer: Do you see a change now compared to when you were (younger)?

[27:04] Zuzu: There is more of a movement towards reducing waste. So that's the change I see the most. There is that movement for 30-30, so having more marine protection in place. I mean, France with the Pelagos Sanctuary did a great job. 

But we need a lot more of that in the Eastern Mediterranean. But the challenge there is the political instability. You know, why should people care about what's under the surface when they have so much to fix on land and so many challenges to overcome on land?

[27:30] Jennifer: That's one of the things that I was going to ask you. What are some of the biggest challenges that you've encountered while pursuing conservation?

[27:38] Zuzu: Oh my gosh, every day. (chuckles) Really being a conservationist means getting up every day, bashing your head in the wall sometimes and still going. No, it's not easy. You're confronted with planetary decline, biodiversity loss and a lot of cruelty and poor practices and really some of the worst of humanity on a daily basis. 

So it's hard to keep that optimism, but I try because I see a shark and then I'm like, okay, all for about and it's all good, good again. But yeah, the challenges are, I mean, on a personal level, the challenges are being a young woman in the field. Every female scientist will tell you the same story. I try to just ignore it and keep pushing forward. 

On a bigger scale, it's understanding that the system is so big and it is full of things that need to be changed. And sometimes it feels like looking at this giant mountain with very little equipment at hand and you have to scale this mountain and you think it's impossible. But then you chip away on small things and it gets better. 

But the challenges are definitely that there's a huge lack of funding for ocean conservation. There's a huge lack of funding going directly to grassroots initiatives. And then on a systemic scale, everything's geared towards extraction, very little is geared towards protection. 

So you're constantly having to change minds and inspire people, beg people to change their practices. And particularly sort of governments and industries, that's hard because they don't necessarily see the value in protecting wildlife. 

On a people level, it's hard, but we keep pushing forward because it's the only way.

[29:15] Jennifer: What is the most urgent marine biodiversity crisis that we're facing?

[29:20] Zuzu: It's sharks. Sharks are the keystone species. They're ecosystem architects. are on top of the food chain. If we lose sharks, we lose everything. 

And already, a third of the world's reefs barely have no sharks. Sharks are functionally extinct and a third of the world's reefs. Most species are heading towards extinction. And that means the ecosystems that depend on sharks are also going to suffer the consequences of losing apex predators. And that's a big challenge.

[29:49] Jennifer: It's interesting, I was off the coast of Borneo and the reefs that were close to Turtle Island, they were dead.

[29:57] Zuzu:  They were dead. There's a lot of dynamite fishing still in that part of the world. So it's an easy way to get fish, right? You throw an explosive - they detonate. Fish swim ladders often explode. They swim, end up on the surface and you just scoop them up with a little net.

[30:13] Jennifer: IIt was really sad to see. I'm sure like 20 years ago it was beautiful.

[30:17] Zuzu: I remember when I went it was incredible. 

Then I had my first experience with dynamite fishing where someone was dynamite fishing very close to us and we had to do an emergency ascent because we couldn't hear anymore. The blast was so loud and we felt the shockwave underwater. 

[30:33] Jennifer: And that was in Southeast Asia?

[30:35] Zuzu: That was in Malaysia.

[30:36] Jennifer: Oh. Your favorite dive spot? I asked this to Sylvia (Earle), she didn't want to answer the question.

[30:42] Zuzu: I’ll be so biased. I mean, I love diving everywhere in general, but I think the Maldives. 

The Maldives is one of the most incredible places to dive. It's full of channels, it's full of little pinnacles. Every atoll is like its own separate ecosystem and no atoll is the same, no island is the same. So it's a (completely) different planet to be diving in. It's incredible.

I mean, I had on one dive, I saw a thresher shark, a whale shark, a tiger shark, an oceanic manta ray, and an incredible reef full of beautiful wildlife and fish.

[31:16] Jennifer: That's beautiful. What is the most valuable lesson now that you've worked from the Arctic to the equator? 

[31:23] Zuzu: As a conservation scientist or?

[31:24] Jennifer: In your experience in the field, yeah.

[31:26] Zuzu: In the field, the most valuable lesson I have learned is that you can never be over-prepared. It always pays off to be a little bit over-prepared. 

There have been times when, you know, something broke but because I had packed spares, we were fine and the whole expedition could go ahead and did.

[31:45] Jennifer: So the Villars Summit has just started. We're in day one. What do you hope to achieve?

[31:51] Zuzu: A multitude of things. I think the most important one for me is to share the story of sharks, to bring sharks into the conversations here because oftentimes they don't get a seat at the table. There are species that's often forgotten in these conversations, especially around planetary change. 

The second is to meet like-minded people, to make new friends, to make new partnerships and connections. But the third is to learn, to learn from people working in fields that I am not working in, to learn from their perspectives, their ways of thinking, their ways of doing things, and hopefully taking some of these lessons and inspirations back into conservation.

[32:29] Jennifer: There's also a lot of young people here, a lot of Villars Fellows and a number of UWC students.

[33:35] Zuzu: We are everywhere.

[33:36] Jennifer: That’s right. What message do you want to give to the next generation? I know you're very young, but for people even younger than you.

[33:45] Zuzu: I’m not young anymore. I'm hitting my 30s this year, just in a few months. 

The message I would give the next generation is to really focus on doing something that you feel is meaningful. I really worry about the next generation. They live in a world that is very focused on online media and on many superficial things and really losing some of that connection with wildlife, with the planet, with nature.

So my advice would be to go out, go out there, go into nature, go meet wildlife, go spend time in forests and in the ocean, in the desert, see the beauty and the rawness of the planet and then hopefully join and making sure that we can keep it safe for future generations. 

Don't become a biologist, become a marine lawyer, become a marine economist. We need a lot more people from other fields in the blue space. And I say this as a marine scientist, we don't need more scientists, we need more people who work for the ocean through other disciplines.

[33:47] Jennifer: Interesting. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for joining us.

[33:50] Zuzu: Thank you for inviting me.

[33:54] Jennifer: If this podcast has been beneficial or valuable to you, feel free to become a patron and support us on Patreon.com, that is P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com/TheFounderSpirit. 

As always, you can find us on Apple, Amazon and Spotify, as well as social media and our website at TheFounderSpirit.com. 

The Founder Spirit podcast is a partner of the Villars Institute, a nonprofit foundation focused on accelerating the transition to a net-zero (and nature-positive) economy and restoring planetary health. 

[34:34] END OF AUDIO